Shell32 file replacement Test results

I'm mostly silent in these discussions for two reasons:

1. The flame war between you and MEB. Not taking sides, not even getting
near such lines of fire. If I did, I doubt I'd agree with either one of you
(speaking in general terms, based upon past experience with both of you,
since I haven't been actually reading any of that thread, particulary.)

2. More importantly, I don't have the time for the kind of in-depth
investigation and discovery that it requires. I used to do that kind of
stuff quite extensively for this group (figuring out what Updates actually
do and comparing versions of DLLs.) Such research requires serious
commitment to thoroughness, else you do others an injustice. Yes, the
research can be done as a team, via this NG and others, but it has to be
done with professionalism and a lot more hands and voices than are available
here these days.

I do *not* consider it beyond the pale to try these techniques you've been
discussing oneself, particularly for home systems, though it's technically a
breach of licensing to use even the most minor of components of a Windows
version that you don't own a license for. Or even to discuss those
techniques here. But I stop short of *recommending* that others use the
techniques. That's for them to decide. They['re welcome to look over my
shoulder while I engage in researcg, but I'm not going to make any
recommendations. I know that' s fine line, but that's where I draw it.

Going a step further, I definitely consider it in bad taste and a breach of
ethics to offer utilities or "unofficial patches" that incorporate such
breaches of licensing. Shortly put, it's illegal. I don't even recommend the
use of ME's defrag for Win98/98SE for this reason, even though I do it
myself. I don't/didn't do it for clients' machines, either, and I've always
considered George Geyde's GEODisk such a breach. Not sure how he got away
with that one, nor if it eventually affected his status as an MVP, though MS
has obviously not considered it worth their time to pursue it, or maybe they
are taking a benign neglect attitude. Don't know, don't care. I happen to
draw that line on this side of such activity. Using the logic that justifies
such things, you could argue that once you bought any version of Windows,
you should be entitled to upgrades for life. Why stop with just certain
components?

(Note: I consider George a good friend. I just happen to disgree with some
of the liberties he's taken. Note, too, that AFAIK the only reason he was
not renewed as an MVP is that life took him in other directions and he
stopped providing support to users in the manner that gets you awarded, not
for GEODisk.)

Also, I happen to own valid licenses for all versions of Windows, for all of
my machines, which is another reason I stay out of it. I'm not a normal
case. But I also usually refrain from mixing and matching, anyway,
particularly when it comes to 98. I want my system to stay "normal" to match
those of most users. Same reason I don't go for most tweakers, add-ons like
OE QuoteFix, for example, and "skins" or more radical things like that Lite
thing thanatoid is forever going on about. I don't even tend to use
replacements for things like OE, Explorer, etc. Otherwise, I have to
continually remember how my system differs from the users' systems when
trying to get into their heads, which in turn is a pre-requisite for
offering decent advice. For the same reason, I also allow my system to be
affected by current events, so that I, hopefully, become aware of them
before or at the same time as they do.

--

Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
"Roll Your Own Free Security Suite"
http://wiki.castlecops.com/Roll_your...Security_Suite

Rick Chauvin wrote:
"98 Guy" wrote in message
Rick - what are your thoughts regarding the use of the Win-2K patch
for MS06-072 on a Win-98 system?

I notice you (and the other MVP's) have been silent about it. Is
there any particular reason for that silence?

Wasn't there that song Silence Is Golden by Gene Pitney
...or am I dating my age

I guess the point is this being the official MS forum then not a
likely place for MVP's etc to talk about non-ms unofficial updates.

I see you singed up over there too
Then you know, or will know that they offer the ie925454.exe (is the
ms kb925454 ms06-072 ) which is an adaptation of the latest IE
Cumulative specifically for W98SE - interesting isn't it!

At first it may be hard to find your way around over there to get the
hang of the different forum and website pages connected to it.
However you can find the ie925454.exe on this webpage adn is the
first one on the list, under the heading of something like-
..The monster list of unofficial hotfixes for W98 SE
http://www.msfn.org/board/?showtopic=84886 ..hope it's okay to post
that and if not apologies and delete my post.

As usual before you install it just use a test bed, or if you don't
have one or then make a partition image of your C for backup - and
install away and of course Track it!
...if you don't like it, image it away or reverse it. ..easy to do.

My setups are indestructible anyway so I have no problem testing what
I feel is appropriate for me. Feeling adventurous, and being
setupwise indestructible, I just installed this latest IE Cumulative
as well as the latest OE Cumulative - they installed fine, complete
registry and file tracking results looks perfectly normal and I can't
tell the difference; I'm impressed quite frankly.

YMMV

read MEB's disclaimer

nite,

Rick

MEB wrote:

but this individual has an apparent complete lack of understanding
of various aspects of this world, and responsibilities under such.

You are one piece of strange work MEB.

Law library, Microsoft's legal pages, EULA, and the DOJ web site.

Micro$haft can take their laws and their EULA's and their lawyers and
their politicians and their Borg business model and their stinking
anti-trust-breakin asses and go to hell.

You tell them that for me MEB. You seem to be squarely connected to
their rear end.

I ask him politely, to refrain from harassing parties

Who am I harassing?

ramifications; court activities, business, commercial contract,
licensing, BBS, web sites, and perhaps ISP activities, though
not strictly limited thereto.

You must be a lawyer MEB.

Give it a rest.

I also direct him to seek other forums

What the hell gives you the right to tell me or other people where to
go or what to do?

This news group is not your sand box to play in.

and/or not so concerned with the potential ramifications;

Stop speaking in riddles and come right out and tell me what those
ramifications are.

"98 Guy" wrote in message ...
| MEB wrote:
|
| but this individual has an apparent complete lack of understanding
| of various aspects of this world, and responsibilities under such.
|
| You are one piece of strange work MEB.
|
| Law library, Microsoft's legal pages, EULA, and the DOJ web site.
|
| Micro$haft can take their laws and their EULA's and their lawyers and
| their politicians and their Borg business model and their stinking
| anti-trust-breakin asses and go to hell.
|
| You tell them that for me MEB. You seem to be squarely connected to
| their rear end.
|
| I ask him politely, to refrain from harassing parties
|
| Who am I harassing?
|
| ramifications; court activities, business, commercial contract,
| licensing, BBS, web sites, and perhaps ISP activities, though
| not strictly limited thereto.
|
| You must be a lawyer MEB.
|
| Give it a rest.
|
| I also direct him to seek other forums
|
| What the hell gives you the right to tell me or other people where to
| go or what to do?
|
| This news group is not your sand box to play in.
|
| and/or not so concerned with the potential ramifications;
|
| Stop speaking in riddles and come right out and tell me what those
| ramifications are.

Fine, you requested a specific answer, see if you can understand this,
which I know will be difficult for you.

If you continue down the course which you apparently intend to do, this
forum will likely disappear and/or be abandoned by the MVPs.
When that occurs, then this group will be abandoned by those interested in
using Windows 98, because you and those like you, which includes myself, do
not carry the extent of respect of the general public regarding the OS.
Moreover, in case you also do not understand, as you yourself have stated,
and I have pointed out elsewhere, it isn't that difficult to discover who
you are and where you live.
One is supposed to outgrow that childish "stick out your tongue, come get
me" attitude, sometime in one's life.

What you continue to suggest, in particular regarding continued use of IE 6
/OE, fails to consider and address, that IE 7 has been introduced by
Microsoft, therefore, even you should understand that IE/OE 6 is in its
final days regardless of any modifications which you continue to suggest.
Your suggestions, may, in fact, give a false sense of security to those who
install your suggestions and could literally open them to hostile activities
on the Internet.
To fully test any modified test files of your prior discussion, one would
have to create a personal locale web server, run the hostile activity [which
isn't that difficult to create if one knows the code] against the supposed
files, and this with EVERY potential modification of that hostile coding
[which is potentially infinite]. Moreover, without the additional
protections provided within the OSs for which they were created, though they
may appear to function properly, they would certainly NOT function to the
extent available with those OSs. Therein, again creating a false sense of
security.

Modifications of the code necessary for installation of IE 7, WMP10 and
other such and like, into Win 9X and ME, is in blatant violation of Law. It
is ludicrous for you or others to attempt to force others to engage in such
unlawful activities, other than to advise you of those violations within
this News Group. You should expect them to advise you, or to ignore you, or
plonk you. For actual legal advise regarding this, seek out an attorney.

The POTENTIAL, extremely thin and delicately balanced legal "grey line" for
9X and ME, lay within testing of potential fixes to the broken "operating
system" due to installation of IE /OE 6. Please try to understand the full
impact and ramifications, as we attempt to do. Even here, I suggest
consultation with an attorney.

Your continued insistence down your course, will cause the abandonment of
this thread by those who otherwise might test such supposed fixes to the
broken operating system. Likely and never to be expected, under
recommendation, just tested as causing no additional harm or damage.
As you were advise, read the disclaimer, and understand what it means.

You have received your free personal "counseling", the above is not legal
advise, discuss these issues with a licensed attorney should you require
more.
It is for you to decide how you proceed.
--
MEB
http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
world"

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if
nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
Or to put it another way:
Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
_______________

"98 Guy" wrote in message
Rick Chauvin wrote:

Don't misunderstand me and my intentions of where I'm concerned
here...

I don't want to misunderstand you - but to help me out you (and the
other MVP's) should explain why you don't want to tread into new
territory here regarding unofficial Win-98 patching.

I've explained my feelings already, it's an automatic and unspoken
understanding for me I guess. If the flow of concencious of the MS MVP's &
Programmers on all of these particular msnews.microsoft.com hosted forums
is not discussing specifics of altering softwares licensings legalities,
then I'll respect that space on these forums.

[...]

Me not take an interest? ..where have you been for all these
years.

Perhaps when I said "take an interest" I meant simply "participate".

I've always participated in helping here, and have gone out of my way
upfront or behind the scenes many times to be of help to those that need
it. I participate in the appropriate manner/circumstance/place which is
right for me in any given situation, there is no limitation to that.

[...]

On December 12, Roger Fink posted a message with the subject "Windows
98 and Security Patches".

Okay yes I see Rogers post.

On December 13, I posted a reply where I changed the subject to
"Microsoft continues to support Windows 98 (was: Windows 98 and
Security Patches)". If you use a news reader that can show a tree
view of a thread then it would show where my post is positioned in the
original thread even though I changed the subject line.

Yes I see that now too off of his post.

I had not yet read all the back and forth replies I see you and meb had
going on there, although somehow in skimming posts I had replied to one of
mebs at the end, although I had not read any posts above that yet, and so
whatever you two were talking about I had no idea. I never focus anyway on
who's posting what in the first place and only skim for content of
interests to me. Right now since you pointed it out I'll go back to
your first post in that thread and read them:

From: "98 Guy" Newsgroups: microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:31 PM
Subject: Microsoft continues to support Windows 98 (was: Windows 98 and
Security Patches)

It's a post with subject that would always peak my interest to read, and
it's well presented.

I see at that point you were talking with legg and had already swapped
OS files and it was running okay, interesting - I did not know you had did
that. I see MEB now came in and you both exchanged back and forth for 6 or
7 posts with specifics to each other - it looks like you both had put some
time into what you were doing investigating and got along real good - I
don't know what happened but somewhere toward the end you both started
getting aggravated with each other and words were exchanged... ...and
that's not so interesting or fun for the rest of us to read and causes the
opposite of what you want to happen for an outcome.

Do you work for Microsoft?

No

[...]

My analogy of the affair thing was simply trying to point out to not slap
the face of the ones who can give you what you are requesting; iow, if you
care for the other group and what they can offer 'which cannot be offered
in this forum' ..then let's not bring focus on them so blatantly in this
or any msnews.microsoft.com sponsored forum? Do you want MS's legal team
to hassle them or shut them down or what?
May I suggest when it comes to these issues, that both of you ask your
technical questions over there where it can more easily be answered by
those that have the answers to give.

I respect your opinions and feelings and your right to have them, and
always appreciate when that respect is given back to each other.

Happy Holidays

Rick

Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays MEB.

On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:32:21 -0500, "Rick Chauvin"
wrote:

Remember, this is an internet newsgroup. It's not a private
Microsoft-hosted web forum.

Irregardless if the whole usernet world picks it up afterwards, I still
post and am subscribed directly to msnews.microsoft.com

I believe a number of organizations pick up news server threads for
various reasons. You have to assume that they think it makes financial
sense to do so.

You don't need to use a web portal hosted by anyone to participate in
the news net. You don't need a Microsoft SW product to access news
groups. Anyone can start a news group - but they can't own it.

RL

Same to you, and may the New Year bring us something truely new.
--
MEB
_______________

"98 Guy" wrote in message ...
|
| Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays MEB.

"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
...

| George Geyde's GEODisk
| --
|
| Gary S. Terhune
| MS-MVP Shell/User
| http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| "Roll Your Own Free Security Suite"
| http://wiki.castlecops.com/Roll_your...Security_Suite
|

Hmm, no longer practically nerded huh,, so that's what happened to dundat..

Has he been there recently? Or is it the major overhaul underway..

--
MEB
_______________

I had hoped someone would ask what my OPINION of what that thin "grey line"
was.
Note, I had avoided the discussion of "grey areas" as a specific definition
was asked for.

To recap several other posts of mine within this News Group.

I have opined that the "end of life" appeared to be that line. Microsoft
had produced a number of things for parties, which one had to call Support
to receive. I had suggested that Microsoft release these to the public, or
place them upon the update site, or somewhere for download.
Issues regarding increased processor support, hard drive support, and other
issues seemed to fall or may have fallen within these "grey areas", and
behind the "grey line". It is debatable and unknown exactly what continued
support was supplying, as Microsoft was not exactly forthcoming on posting
every instance. One can see or could see, that additional processor support
had been supplied, it is unknown to me what additional support had been
supplied. Additional BIOS support was supplied, but which ones? ETC.
It was also to be noticed that there appeared, during the extended support
period, issues which Microsoft suggested calling Support for, without
defining whether the issue was addressed, or that it was NOT being
supported. In contrast with those which it had specifically directed were
not.

So I personally believe, as a normal and licensed user, there are other
issues for discussion, beyond the IE /OE 6 system corruptions, which was the
centering of the prior post.

As Gary has opined and noted, he also has tested and/or used other programs
and other "fixes" or tweaks, which may have fallen outside the purity {and
can we truly use that term here when security issues and system issues were
created by Microsoft, and we did pay for these systems] of the 9X
environment, which I believe most of us have. Always tempered along the "end
of life", but what additional tweaks can be used? Is it because Microsoft
ended it, or failed to supply it to everyone?

Moreover, in my opinion, they can and should be addressed here, but that's
my normal user opinion, and may not be supported by others, or even strictly
legal.
I have been known to proceed down several courses which were not exactly
well received here. I accept that. I do try to keep them within my idea of
what is addressable though, and try to personally test those issues BEFORE I
present them, particularly for error and/or security.

--
MEB
http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
world"

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if
nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
Or to put it another way:
Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
_______________

Update - test still underway - still no issues to report... would post
something if or when there is..

Rick, noted you installed the 2gig test file, also noted it was an OPTION
which had been apparently addressed within the shell32 test file.
In other words apparently an "either or" situation, any appreciable
difference between both tested together and just one or the other?

Any suggestions for the next test?

Thinking of perhaps looking for and testing other files which might address
the left over holes and flaws in the system un-addressed by Microsoft.

--
MEB
http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
world"

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if
nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
Or to put it another way:
Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
_______________

"MEB" meb@not wrote in message
...
| Hmm, seems there may be issues to discuss.
|
| Background:
|
| "Rick Chauvin" wrote in message
| ...
| |
| |
| | "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| |
| |
| | [....]
| |
| | BTW: I'm now testing a single file replacement supposedly for the
large
| | file deletion /moving issue, and related issues pursuant other program
| |
| | [....]
| |
| | It occasionally surfaces every once in awhile, even recently
mentioned
| | in one of the discussions as an "off-shoot". Some have a problem, some
| | don't..
| |
| | You can read about the supposed fixes that have been tried, and the
| file
| | I'm testing here.
| | http://www.msfn.org/board/?showtopic=84451
| |
| |
| | That's very interesting MEB the webpage you pointed out, with how they
| | tried adjusting the SHELL32.DLL to try and resolve that file delete
| | problem. I'm glad you posted that link or I may never have seen it. I
| did
| | of course install the file to test it, but unfortunately it did not
solve
| | the problem on my 9x partitions available. I even signed up at that
forum
| | you linked and just made a post about my findings there.
| |
| | Thanks for the heads up about it, of which I'm glad someone is still
| | looking into it, although as days go by I boot to 98SE less and less
often
| | and so imagine at some point it will be less of an issue for fewer and
| | fewer people; however even still I do hope that anonymous programmer
still
| | comes up with a resolve.
| |
| | Rick
| |
| |
|
| Rick I downloaded your 2500 file test and ran it through to see if it
might
| alter my present findings.
|
| Here are the results:
|
| TEST OF SHELL32 FILE REPLACEMENT
|
| 2500 files in c:\2500
|
| *with 10% Recycle Bin
|
| no problems with directory delete from Explorer or Recycle Bin
|
| *with 0% Recycle Bin
|
| No problems deleting directory
|
| *Do not move to Recycle Bin
|
| No problems
|
|
| Test in c:\Upgrades\Microsoft\rdchauvin\2500
|
| Do not move to Recycle Bin
|
| *Deletion by files highlighted, pause while queued, no paper thrown, no
| other problems
|
| *Deletion by directory, no problems
| ---
|
| I noted that your test failed. So perhaps we need to discuss what or why
| yours did or why mine did not.
|
| My system:
|
| ABit BH6R2 over-clocked at 133mhz FSB, 733 PIII, 256 mem.
| OS 98SE as Microsoft left it at "End of Life support".
| IE /OE 6
| Running progs:
| AVG
| Logitech Mouse
| Kerio PF
| WinTidy
| NVidia Desktop
| Aureal Sound Control
| Explorer
| UEdit for documentation
| WinZip for extraction
| (and the normal stuff Microsoft runs)
|
| --
| MEB
| http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
| BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
| world"
|
| "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
| Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as
if
| nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
| Or to put it another way:
| Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
| but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
| _______________
|
|