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SATA HDD and letter mash



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 22nd 07, 02:55 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Norman
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 87
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

yep, finally got it installed, BUT!

I boot into windows. PATA is three partitions. SATA is one, newly formatted
with SG tools. I show 2 of the SATA in Explorer. It grabbed D: and G:
Looks OK in device manager, and drive at G shown there. (no duplicates or
anything related to D), except that the properties page is for a CD/DVD. It
has auto-insert available. And removable checked.
The G, in explorer, shows up as a removable.

Changing that, or removing drive, from device manager causes system to lock
during restart. Reset causes it to reinstall with those defaults.
Except for auto-insert which seems changable.

An aside, maybe related, system has refused to do proper "shut down",
noticed maybe day after clean install. I had not pursued that, but was not
choosing shut down except on rare occaisons.
Everything else seems to be working fine, including sleep, if I shut down
Multpass server. Will pop out of sleep first time, with Multipass
initialization error, but it still works. Maybe order of sequence and it
gets restarted, however after the first sleep cycle it will stop coming out
of sleep. Solution, after getting error message, manually shut down server
and restart as necessary.

I found at SG site where they seem to abandon their tools when installing 9x
to SATA, or adding SATA for storage. The latter calls for fdisk once into
windows. No hint on what partitioning to do.

Looking for advice to overcome?

Advice on fdisk, maybe set up without primary partition?
Setting with extended/logical only, will that create other problems? Or
limitations?
Are there tools such as PartMagic that will work with disks having no
primary?


I was considering doing similar to a USB HDD that if plugged during boot
also creates a "letter mash". I have been on hold for a long time with that
idea because drive was already loaded with data. Slow transfer to clear it.
Thought of using PM7 I had on deck, but apparently didn't solve problem,
maybe limited to PM7 & USB HDD's. Now have PM8 on deck. Was loaded before
meltdown of MOBO swap, add drives issue. I didn't like the way it was
resizing partitions, that is not actually doing it but creating hidden
folders that it showed as increases and decreases of partitions. And became
leery that making, creating, hiding, etc. primary partitions was of the same
type of voodoo.
Does PM8 or any other utility do it in a manner analogous to fdisk?
(question because with commercial and free utilities claiming better, why is
fdisk still the blood of HDD setup?)

Norman





  #2  
Old January 22nd 07, 03:26 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Mike M
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 2,047
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

Advice?

Basically the same as before. Modern hardware isn't designed for use with
Win 9x operating systems such as Win Me. Operating system such as Win Me
were not designed for hardware produced since 2000. If you insist on
trying then be prepared for problems and resolving them yourself.
--
Mike Maltby



Norman wrote:

yep, finally got it installed, BUT!

I boot into windows. PATA is three partitions. SATA is one, newly
formatted with SG tools. I show 2 of the SATA in Explorer. It grabbed
D: and G:
Looks OK in device manager, and drive at G shown there. (no
duplicates or anything related to D), except that the properties page
is for a CD/DVD. It has auto-insert available. And removable checked.
The G, in explorer, shows up as a removable.

Changing that, or removing drive, from device manager causes system
to lock during restart. Reset causes it to reinstall with those
defaults.
Except for auto-insert which seems changable.

An aside, maybe related, system has refused to do proper "shut down",
noticed maybe day after clean install. I had not pursued that, but
was not choosing shut down except on rare occaisons.
Everything else seems to be working fine, including sleep, if I shut
down Multpass server. Will pop out of sleep first time, with Multipass
initialization error, but it still works. Maybe order of sequence and
it gets restarted, however after the first sleep cycle it will stop
coming out of sleep. Solution, after getting error message, manually
shut down server and restart as necessary.

I found at SG site where they seem to abandon their tools when
installing 9x to SATA, or adding SATA for storage. The latter calls
for fdisk once into windows. No hint on what partitioning to do.

Looking for advice to overcome?

Advice on fdisk, maybe set up without primary partition?
Setting with extended/logical only, will that create other problems?
Or limitations?
Are there tools such as PartMagic that will work with disks having no
primary?


I was considering doing similar to a USB HDD that if plugged during
boot also creates a "letter mash". I have been on hold for a long
time with that idea because drive was already loaded with data. Slow
transfer to clear it. Thought of using PM7 I had on deck, but
apparently didn't solve problem, maybe limited to PM7 & USB HDD's.
Now have PM8 on deck. Was loaded before meltdown of MOBO swap, add
drives issue. I didn't like the way it was resizing partitions, that
is not actually doing it but creating hidden folders that it showed
as increases and decreases of partitions. And became leery that
making, creating, hiding, etc. primary partitions was of the same
type of voodoo.
Does PM8 or any other utility do it in a manner analogous to fdisk?
(question because with commercial and free utilities claiming better,
why is fdisk still the blood of HDD setup?)

Norman


  #3  
Old January 22nd 07, 05:33 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Norman
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 87
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

Ouch. I know prug&Prae is better, but is it going to be totally left to
that?

Some sort of disconnect here because my MOBO is compliant to multiple OS,
including the old ones.
It has SATA on board.
It is a SATA HDD.

Almost sounds like, if OS was not designed specifically with that in mind,
fagetaboutit.
And even if it was, if it don't work, we might fix it.
Or wait till next OS.
Or wait till 128bit.
Or gig-a-bit. You know what it is to be gigged-a-bit? ;-)

Norman

"Mike M" wrote in message
...
Advice?

Basically the same as before. Modern hardware isn't designed for use with
Win 9x operating systems such as Win Me. Operating system such as Win Me
were not designed for hardware produced since 2000. If you insist on
trying then be prepared for problems and resolving them yourself.
--
Mike Maltby



Norman wrote:

yep, finally got it installed, BUT!

I boot into windows. PATA is three partitions. SATA is one, newly
formatted with SG tools. I show 2 of the SATA in Explorer. It grabbed
D: and G:
Looks OK in device manager, and drive at G shown there. (no
duplicates or anything related to D), except that the properties page
is for a CD/DVD. It has auto-insert available. And removable checked.
The G, in explorer, shows up as a removable.

Changing that, or removing drive, from device manager causes system
to lock during restart. Reset causes it to reinstall with those
defaults.
Except for auto-insert which seems changable.

An aside, maybe related, system has refused to do proper "shut down",
noticed maybe day after clean install. I had not pursued that, but
was not choosing shut down except on rare occaisons.
Everything else seems to be working fine, including sleep, if I shut
down Multpass server. Will pop out of sleep first time, with Multipass
initialization error, but it still works. Maybe order of sequence and
it gets restarted, however after the first sleep cycle it will stop
coming out of sleep. Solution, after getting error message, manually
shut down server and restart as necessary.

I found at SG site where they seem to abandon their tools when
installing 9x to SATA, or adding SATA for storage. The latter calls
for fdisk once into windows. No hint on what partitioning to do.

Looking for advice to overcome?

Advice on fdisk, maybe set up without primary partition?
Setting with extended/logical only, will that create other problems?
Or limitations?
Are there tools such as PartMagic that will work with disks having no
primary?


I was considering doing similar to a USB HDD that if plugged during
boot also creates a "letter mash". I have been on hold for a long
time with that idea because drive was already loaded with data. Slow
transfer to clear it. Thought of using PM7 I had on deck, but
apparently didn't solve problem, maybe limited to PM7 & USB HDD's.
Now have PM8 on deck. Was loaded before meltdown of MOBO swap, add
drives issue. I didn't like the way it was resizing partitions, that
is not actually doing it but creating hidden folders that it showed
as increases and decreases of partitions. And became leery that
making, creating, hiding, etc. primary partitions was of the same
type of voodoo.
Does PM8 or any other utility do it in a manner analogous to fdisk?
(question because with commercial and free utilities claiming better,
why is fdisk still the blood of HDD setup?)

Norman




  #4  
Old January 22nd 07, 08:08 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Mike M
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 2,047
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

Why not ask your motherboard manufacturer for help since it is they who
say their mobo supports Win Me. You won't get any help from Microsoft as
Win Me is long out of full support (mid 2004) and also out of extended
support, where only critical security issues are addressed, which ended in
mid 2006.

What you seem to conveniently forget because it doesn't necessarily fit
your agenda is that Win 9x systems were designed in the 90s for the
hardware available at that time when a 400MHz cpu was fast, 256MB of RAM
unusual and drives larger than 40GB or so, rare. Today, of course, such
hardware could barely if at all run XP. Times change as do operating
systems and if you want to use modern hardware then you need to run a more
modern operating system that is more suited to the hardware.
--
Mike Maltby



Norman wrote:

Ouch. I know prug&Prae is better, but is it going to be totally left
to that?

Some sort of disconnect here because my MOBO is compliant to multiple
OS, including the old ones.
It has SATA on board.
It is a SATA HDD.

Almost sounds like, if OS was not designed specifically with that in
mind, fagetaboutit.
And even if it was, if it don't work, we might fix it.
Or wait till next OS.
Or wait till 128bit.
Or gig-a-bit. You know what it is to be gigged-a-bit? ;-)


  #5  
Old January 22nd 07, 08:09 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Mike M
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 2,047
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

Ouch. I know prug&Prae is better, but is it going to be totally left
to that?


What are you rambling about now? P&P isn't new and has nothing to do with
any problems you might be experiencing.
--
Mike Maltby



Norman wrote:

Ouch. I know prug&Prae is better, but is it going to be totally left
to that?

Some sort of disconnect here because my MOBO is compliant to multiple
OS, including the old ones.
It has SATA on board.
It is a SATA HDD.

Almost sounds like, if OS was not designed specifically with that in
mind, fagetaboutit.
And even if it was, if it don't work, we might fix it.
Or wait till next OS.
Or wait till 128bit.
Or gig-a-bit. You know what it is to be gigged-a-bit? ;-)


  #6  
Old January 25th 07, 10:12 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Shane
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 480
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

Mike,

Probably I'll go for a new machine soon. Rather than build one because
(apart from I can't necessarily hold delicate objects anymore without
dropping them) deals including a flat panel and a DVD-RW (and the fast CPU
and large RAM etc) are pretty hard to match bought seperately, at least it
seems to me.

But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is it really
to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?

Maybe what I need is a case that accepts two motherboards (as opposed to two
computers). Is there such a thing that you know of? It'd be networking
within a single case I suppose.

Shane

Mike M wrote:
Why not ask your motherboard manufacturer for help since it is they
who say their mobo supports Win Me. You won't get any help from
Microsoft as Win Me is long out of full support (mid 2004) and also
out of extended support, where only critical security issues are
addressed, which ended in mid 2006.

What you seem to conveniently forget because it doesn't necessarily
fit your agenda is that Win 9x systems were designed in the 90s for
the hardware available at that time when a 400MHz cpu was fast, 256MB
of RAM unusual and drives larger than 40GB or so, rare. Today, of
course, such hardware could barely if at all run XP. Times change as
do operating systems and if you want to use modern hardware then you
need to run a more modern operating system that is more suited to the
hardware.
Ouch. I know prug&Prae is better, but is it going to be totally left
to that?

Some sort of disconnect here because my MOBO is compliant to multiple
OS, including the old ones.
It has SATA on board.
It is a SATA HDD.

Almost sounds like, if OS was not designed specifically with that in
mind, fagetaboutit.
And even if it was, if it don't work, we might fix it.
Or wait till next OS.
Or wait till 128bit.
Or gig-a-bit. You know what it is to be gigged-a-bit? ;-)



  #7  
Old January 25th 07, 11:32 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Mike M
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 2,047
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is it
really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?


Unless you want to access usb devices from Win 9x I would recommend that
instead of getting a PC that can support running antiquated OSs you
consider getting a PC that is good at running current and proposed OSs and
then run older OSs such as Win98/98SE and Win Me in a virtual machine.
With a decent base PC that has a fair bit of memory you can have two or
more virtual machines running. For example I do all of my Win Me software
support using copies of Win Me running in a virtual machine only switching
on my old Win Me box if there is a hardware query I want to check out. I
have various Win Me images I use including an Out of the Box install, and
others with IE5.5 SP2, IE6 and IE6 SP1.

Microsoft's Virtual PC 2004 is free
(http://www.microsoft.com/windows/vir...loads/sp1.mspx) although
officially it needs XP Pro and cannot, or rather should not, be installed
on XP Home. USB support is I believe available in other competing
virtualisation products and may be included in VPC2007 which is in beta.
I haven't checked, I'm still using VPC2004 and haven't got around to
installing the copy I have of VPC2007.
--
Mike


Shane wrote:

Mike,

Probably I'll go for a new machine soon. Rather than build one because
(apart from I can't necessarily hold delicate objects anymore without
dropping them) deals including a flat panel and a DVD-RW (and the
fast CPU and large RAM etc) are pretty hard to match bought
seperately, at least it seems to me.

But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is it
really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?

Maybe what I need is a case that accepts two motherboards (as opposed
to two computers). Is there such a thing that you know of? It'd be
networking within a single case I suppose.


  #8  
Old January 26th 07, 01:38 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Shane
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 480
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

Thanks for the suggestion Mike, and I do want to try that anyway eventually.
But I want to be able to boot up with a DOS cd.

I recently tried to put 98SE on a Toshiba Satellite with XP on - that I'd
partitioned for FAT32 data and backup drives years ago and always meant to
put dual booting with 9x on, and finally decided to get around to it - and
found that it just wouldn't recognise DOS! Boots fine with the NT cds - in
fact I put NT4.0 on instead.

So I thought - no point having FAT32 drives then, might as well take
advantage of NTFS security! And started converting them. Only it failed. And
I couldn't fix it with either the Recovery Console or a BartPE cd - they
wouldn't run. And I couldn't even re-install XP (or NT4.0) because the setup
would quit - because two of the volumes had become crosslinked (or whatever
you call it in NTFS). I couldn't even *delete* the volumes!

The only way I could fix it - that I'm aware of - was by installing Linux!
With that I was able to delete volumes and start again. So I really don't
want a computer I can't boot to DOS on. I certainly don't intend to get
Vista anyway so in that sense I don't need the absolute latest model -
unless, that is, it already is too late.


Shane


Mike M wrote:
But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is it
really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?


Unless you want to access usb devices from Win 9x I would recommend
that instead of getting a PC that can support running antiquated OSs
you consider getting a PC that is good at running current and
proposed OSs and then run older OSs such as Win98/98SE and Win Me in
a virtual machine. With a decent base PC that has a fair bit of
memory you can have two or more virtual machines running. For
example I do all of my Win Me software support using copies of Win Me
running in a virtual machine only switching on my old Win Me box if
there is a hardware query I want to check out. I have various Win Me
images I use including an Out of the Box install, and others with
IE5.5 SP2, IE6 and IE6 SP1.
Microsoft's Virtual PC 2004 is free
(http://www.microsoft.com/windows/vir...loads/sp1.mspx)
although officially it needs XP Pro and cannot, or rather should not,
be installed on XP Home. USB support is I believe available in other
competing virtualisation products and may be included in VPC2007
which is in beta. I haven't checked, I'm still using VPC2004 and
haven't got around to installing the copy I have of VPC2007.

Mike,

Probably I'll go for a new machine soon. Rather than build one
because (apart from I can't necessarily hold delicate objects
anymore without dropping them) deals including a flat panel and a
DVD-RW (and the fast CPU and large RAM etc) are pretty hard to match
bought seperately, at least it seems to me.

But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is it
really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?

Maybe what I need is a case that accepts two motherboards (as opposed
to two computers). Is there such a thing that you know of? It'd be
networking within a single case I suppose.



  #9  
Old January 26th 07, 01:48 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Mike M
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 2,047
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

But I want to be able to boot up with a DOS cd.

That's no problem with a VM. You can boot it from a CD if required.

As for your problems with a laptop I'd probably have used BING to sort out
the partitions. No need to install, boot from either a BING floppy or CD
and enter Maintenance mode.
--
Mike M


Shane wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion Mike, and I do want to try that anyway
eventually. But I want to be able to boot up with a DOS cd.

I recently tried to put 98SE on a Toshiba Satellite with XP on - that
I'd partitioned for FAT32 data and backup drives years ago and always
meant to put dual booting with 9x on, and finally decided to get
around to it - and found that it just wouldn't recognise DOS! Boots
fine with the NT cds - in fact I put NT4.0 on instead.

So I thought - no point having FAT32 drives then, might as well take
advantage of NTFS security! And started converting them. Only it
failed. And I couldn't fix it with either the Recovery Console or a
BartPE cd - they wouldn't run. And I couldn't even re-install XP (or
NT4.0) because the setup would quit - because two of the volumes had
become crosslinked (or whatever you call it in NTFS). I couldn't even
*delete* the volumes!
The only way I could fix it - that I'm aware of - was by installing
Linux! With that I was able to delete volumes and start again. So I
really don't want a computer I can't boot to DOS on. I certainly
don't intend to get Vista anyway so in that sense I don't need the
absolute latest model - unless, that is, it already is too late.


Shane


Mike M wrote:
But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is it
really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?


Unless you want to access usb devices from Win 9x I would recommend
that instead of getting a PC that can support running antiquated OSs
you consider getting a PC that is good at running current and
proposed OSs and then run older OSs such as Win98/98SE and Win Me in
a virtual machine. With a decent base PC that has a fair bit of
memory you can have two or more virtual machines running. For
example I do all of my Win Me software support using copies of Win Me
running in a virtual machine only switching on my old Win Me box if
there is a hardware query I want to check out. I have various Win Me
images I use including an Out of the Box install, and others with
IE5.5 SP2, IE6 and IE6 SP1.
Microsoft's Virtual PC 2004 is free
(http://www.microsoft.com/windows/vir...loads/sp1.mspx)
although officially it needs XP Pro and cannot, or rather should not,
be installed on XP Home. USB support is I believe available in other
competing virtualisation products and may be included in VPC2007
which is in beta. I haven't checked, I'm still using VPC2004 and
haven't got around to installing the copy I have of VPC2007.

Mike,

Probably I'll go for a new machine soon. Rather than build one
because (apart from I can't necessarily hold delicate objects
anymore without dropping them) deals including a flat panel and a
DVD-RW (and the fast CPU and large RAM etc) are pretty hard to match
bought seperately, at least it seems to me.

But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is it
really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?

Maybe what I need is a case that accepts two motherboards (as
opposed to two computers). Is there such a thing that you know of?
It'd be networking within a single case I suppose.


  #10  
Old January 26th 07, 03:31 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsme.general
Shane
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 480
Default SATA HDD and letter mash

Mike M wrote:
But I want to be able to boot up with a DOS cd.


That's no problem with a VM. You can boot it from a CD if required.

As for your problems with a laptop I'd probably have used BING to
sort out the partitions. No need to install, boot from either a BING
floppy or CD and enter Maintenance mode.


Don't recall if I had that available. If so I didn't use it because I was
hoping to get into the volume(s) and repair it/them.

Or maybe I did try it. My memory is poor these days. Hopefully it's just the
drugs now. I think I made it academic by accidentally installing Linux on
the wrong volume - because at that point I didn't realise two were being
seen as one.

Yes, that's what happened.

Still don't recall if I had BING available. I might have assumed that it
wouldn't boot anyway, though hopefully I'd have tried it - I really don't
want to make assumptions! So BING doesn't use any flavour of DOS? I'd better
drum that into my head!

As soon as I typed that, I felt something damp on the end of my nose. I have
a nosebleed. If this gets any wierder I may run off down the lane in my
dressing gown!

Shane

Thanks for the suggestion Mike, and I do want to try that anyway
eventually. But I want to be able to boot up with a DOS cd.

I recently tried to put 98SE on a Toshiba Satellite with XP on - that
I'd partitioned for FAT32 data and backup drives years ago and always
meant to put dual booting with 9x on, and finally decided to get
around to it - and found that it just wouldn't recognise DOS! Boots
fine with the NT cds - in fact I put NT4.0 on instead.

So I thought - no point having FAT32 drives then, might as well take
advantage of NTFS security! And started converting them. Only it
failed. And I couldn't fix it with either the Recovery Console or a
BartPE cd - they wouldn't run. And I couldn't even re-install XP (or
NT4.0) because the setup would quit - because two of the volumes had
become crosslinked (or whatever you call it in NTFS). I couldn't even
*delete* the volumes!
The only way I could fix it - that I'm aware of - was by installing
Linux! With that I was able to delete volumes and start again. So I
really don't want a computer I can't boot to DOS on. I certainly
don't intend to get Vista anyway so in that sense I don't need the
absolute latest model - unless, that is, it already is too late.


Shane


Mike M wrote:
But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is
it really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?

Unless you want to access usb devices from Win 9x I would recommend
that instead of getting a PC that can support running antiquated OSs
you consider getting a PC that is good at running current and
proposed OSs and then run older OSs such as Win98/98SE and Win Me in
a virtual machine. With a decent base PC that has a fair bit of
memory you can have two or more virtual machines running. For
example I do all of my Win Me software support using copies of Win
Me running in a virtual machine only switching on my old Win Me box
if there is a hardware query I want to check out. I have various
Win Me images I use including an Out of the Box install, and others
with IE5.5 SP2, IE6 and IE6 SP1.
Microsoft's Virtual PC 2004 is free
(http://www.microsoft.com/windows/vir...loads/sp1.mspx)
although officially it needs XP Pro and cannot, or rather should
not, be installed on XP Home. USB support is I believe available
in other competing virtualisation products and may be included in
VPC2007 which is in beta. I haven't checked, I'm still using
VPC2004 and haven't got around to installing the copy I have of
VPC2007.
Mike,

Probably I'll go for a new machine soon. Rather than build one
because (apart from I can't necessarily hold delicate objects
anymore without dropping them) deals including a flat panel and a
DVD-RW (and the fast CPU and large RAM etc) are pretty hard to
match bought seperately, at least it seems to me.

But I don't want something I can't run a 9x OS on as a backup. Is
it really to the point where I'm probably out of luck now?

Maybe what I need is a case that accepts two motherboards (as
opposed to two computers). Is there such a thing that you know of?
It'd be networking within a single case I suppose.



 




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