CD Player Questions

Frog wrote:

Question, does it make any difference which CD device is Master and
Slave? If so, what happens if I switch the ribbon wire on the back
of these two devices?

The end terminal is master, center slave. The drives need to be
jumpered appropriately. Either drive can be master or slave.

--�

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
| Frog wrote:
|
| Question, does it make any difference which CD device is Master and
| Slave? If so, what happens if I switch the ribbon wire on the back
| of these two devices?
|
| The end terminal is master, center slave. The drives need to be
| jumpered appropriately. Either drive can be master or slave.
|
| --
|
| dadiOH
| ____________________________
|
| dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
| ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
| LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
| Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
|
|
|

To clarify: Choosing either IDE cable, one drive must be configured as
master, the other as slave.

IF you have set the BIOS to boot from the CD/DVD it should be configured as
a MASTER on the drive jumpers, not as slave.

The preferred [BIOS] Boot CD should be set for the MASTER CD. IF that drive
is, however, set as slave there MAY be errors regardless of the ability to
set the BIOS to the Slave drive.. so if your preferred Boot CD is presently
set as Slave, set it as the Master [on the Secondary Channel]. OR if set as
cable select, make sure it is connected to the proper cable connector. BTW,
using cable select is an *iffy* issue. Some BIOSes do not properly handle
it, particularly for booting purposes.

--
MEB
http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com
________

Thanks for your help.

See comments below:

MEB wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
| Frog wrote:
|
| Question, does it make any difference which CD device is Master and
| Slave? If so, what happens if I switch the ribbon wire on the back
| of these two devices?
|
| The end terminal is master, center slave. The drives need to be
| jumpered appropriately. Either drive can be master or slave.
|
| --
|
| dadiOH
| ____________________________
|
| dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
| ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
| LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
| Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
|
|
|

To clarify: Choosing either IDE cable, one drive must be configured as
master, the other as slave.

Presently,
--the Primary IDE Master (at end of cable) is the ZIP-100 device,
--the Primary IDE Slave (the plug closest to the motherboard) is the
hard drive,
--the Secondary IDE Master (at end of cable) is the PLEXTOR CD device, and
--the Secondary IDE Slave (the plug closest to the motherboard) is the
SAMSUNG CD device.


IF you have set the BIOS to boot from the CD/DVD it should be configured as
a MASTER on the drive jumpers, not as slave.

It appears that the PLEXTOR CD device is connected as a Secondary IDE
master. Thus, it should be checked during boot up when I have it listed
above the hard drive on the BIOS/Boot window. When I place it in
this order, I have problems that appear in the Device Manager.

The preferred [BIOS] Boot CD should be set for the MASTER CD. IF that drive
is, however, set as slave there MAY be errors regardless of the ability to
set the BIOS to the Slave drive.. so if your preferred Boot CD is presently
set as Slave, set it as the Master [on the Secondary Channel]. OR if set as
cable select, make sure it is connected to the proper cable connector. BTW,
using cable select is an *iffy* issue. Some BIOSes do not properly handle
it, particularly for booting purposes.

Thanks for your continued help--it is appreciated.

I tried to answer both messages in one response---please see my response
to MEB's message.

dadiOH wrote:
Frog wrote:

Question, does it make any difference which CD device is Master and
Slave? If so, what happens if I switch the ribbon wire on the back
of these two devices?

The end terminal is master, center slave. The drives need to be
jumpered appropriately. Either drive can be master or slave.

--�

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Frog" wrote in message ...
Thanks for your continued help--it is appreciated.

I tried to answer both messages in one response---please see my response
to MEB's message.

dadiOH wrote:
Frog wrote:

Question, does it make any difference which CD device is Master and
Slave? If so, what happens if I switch the ribbon wire on the back
of these two devices?

The end terminal is master, center slave. The drives need to be
jumpered appropriately. Either drive can be master or slave.

--�

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico



As I remember, if you are not using "Cable select" then the end connector and center connector are
just connectors. There usage depends on the Master/Slave settings of the drives plugged into them.

You don't have to keep moving your drives around just to fit master and slave correctly.

Only the floppy cable has a true "end" connector.

Galen

Frog wrote:

Thanks for responding to my call for help.


I leave your story below, but just write what i would check first.

#1) Futile exercise? Is the CD you are trying to boot from even
bootable? Unlike their WinXP CDs, and many 'Restore' CDs with
Win98SE that comes with 'Brand Name' machines from so called
OEM's ( Dell, Siemens, Acer, Compaq, etc... ), a microsoft-issued
Win98SE CD isn't bootable.

#2) Important! You write:
"Secondly, the SAMSUNG device is slow and may be on its way to
the grave yard---that is, unless some setting is causing it to be
slow. The technician at the shop (back when I was having the
internal hard drive installed) could not make it work and removed
it from the system. After my meltdown, I reinstalled it, and it
has worked intermittently/and started reading a CD very slowly
since that re-installation."
You have a CD-Drive that was removed because some person couldn't
get it to work, and it is now working only intermittently for you
and with disappearing IDE devices in the Win98 Device Manager
depending on different BIOS settings. ¡Until you have everything
else working fine, remove this device from the equation!
Disconnect Data- and Power-cables from the Samsung Drive. Have
only the Plextor CD-Drive, jumpered as master, as a single device
on the second IDE-channel.

#3) I don't know if you took apart and rebuilt the hardware in
the aftermath of its 'meltdown', if both CD-Drives perhaps are
jumpered as 'master', but you describe looking inside it now. I
would check to confirm that on each IDE-cable one device was
jumpered as master and one as slave or as master if using only a
single device (if you follow step #2 above).
Does it make any difference which CD device is Master?, you ask.
If you have the newer '80-wire' IDE-cables then see _DadiOH_and
_MEB_ , if you have the older '40-wire' cable there are in fact
two different ones behaving differently, but i think the special
'Cable Select Cable' is uncommon.
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable80.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable.html
( Maybe i've just been lucky but for me IDE devices have 'worked'
with the master in the middle or at the end, alone or with a
slave, using the standard 40-wire cables. )
Go with the advice from _DadiOH_ and _MEB_ .

#4) Primary IDE Channel ( with more info in your newer post. )
Check the jumpers on the HDD and Zip-Disk Drive. For how to
attach the Data-cable see point #3 above. And then check to see
when using 'Auto' on the BIOS Setup's main page that the HDD
'ST330621A' is found as the Primary Master.

#5) Make sure you are using a Bootable CD and try again to change
the BIOS settings to have 'ATAPI CD-ROM' before 'IDE Hard Drive'.



1. I have done several things since receiving your message, that I would
like to recap for you.

First, I got inside of the box to confirm where the ribbon wires go
from the motherboard and to what device. Here are the results of that
survey:

The plug closest to the edge of the motherboard (titled FLOPPY on
the drawing in my book) is connected to the floppy drive (A Drive).

The Secondary IDE plug (second in from the side of the motherboard) is
connected first to the SAMSUNG-3230 CD device and then to the Plextor
CD-R device.

The Primary IDE plug (third in from the side of the motherboard) is
connected first to the hard drive and then to the ZIP-100 drive.

I concluded that all devices were plugged in correctly---maybe. I say
maybe, because I see the SAMSUNG CD device lighting up on startup even
when it is listed below the hard drive during startup. I turned off my
computer, put my Windows 98SE CD in the SAMSOUNG CD device, and started
my computer. The lights flickered on the front of the CD player during
startup, but it did not run the 98SE CD. I then moved it to a position
ahead of the hard drive in the boot sequence...the results were the same
as before. I do not see the lights flicker on the front of the PLEXTOR
CD player during startup.

2. Based on your message, I made a visit to the BIOS/MAIN window. Here
is the way I found four lines of information on this page, when I
arrived---followed by the actions I took:

Primary Mster [Auto] - I made no change to this line.

Primary Slave [Auto] - On the second window of this entry, I changed
Auto to ZIP-100.

Secondary Master [Auto] - On the second window of this entry, I
changed Auto to CD-ROM

Secondary Slave [Auto] - On the second window of this entry, I
changed Auto to CD-ROM

I restarted my computer and immediately looked in Device Manager. There
I found the hard drive partitions listed, but no ZIP or CD drives were
listed. So back to the BIOS again. I changed everything back except
the Secondary Slave entry which remained CD-ROM. A restart and all of
the devices were again present in the Device Manager (no problems
noted). I put 98SE CD in the SAMSUNG device; and it very slowly auto
started, and the Windows page appeared on screen. (Hurray, this device
had stopped reading and presenting information on screen several days
ago---good news). I then put the 98SE CD in the PLEXTOR device; and it
quickly auto started, and the Windows page appeared on screen. Thus,
this change did make a difference with the SAMSUNG device---it again works.

3. I next visited the BIOS/BOOT page again. Here is the way this page
looked on arrival:

1. Removable Device [Legacy Floppy]
2. IDE Hard Drive {ST330621A]
3. ATAPI CD-ROM [Plextor CD-R PX-W1210A]
4. Other Boot Device [INT18 Device (Network)]

Of course, neither CD player is in the boot sequence before the hard
drive. Thus, I changed the order of these elements, and only two
combinations did not cause problems in the Device Manager. The first no
problem was as I found them above. The second was as follows:

1. Removable Device [Legacy Floppy]
2. Other Boot Device [INT18 Device (Network)]
3. IDE Hard Drive {ST330621A]
4. ATAPI CD-ROM [Plextor CD-R PX-W1210A]

This combination did not result in any problems in the Device Manager.
It, however, did not open the 98SE CD on boot-up.


I think the above is a summary of the steps I have taken in response to
the information presented in your message. I hope I did as you
suggested--if not, let me know and I will try again. I know that my
computer originally only had one CD device installed (SAMSUNG). It was
not until many years later that the second CD device was installed
(PLEXTOR). They both seemed to perform perfectly together prior to my
meltdown. No, to the best of my knowledge, a CD device has never been
in the boot sequence before the hard drive. Secondly, the SAMSUNG
device is slow and may be on its way to the grave yard---that is, unless
some setting is causing it to be slow. The technician at the shop (back
when I was having the internal hard drive installed) could not make it
work and removed it from the system. After my meltdown, I reinstalled
it, and it has worked intermittently/and started reading a CD very
slowly since that re-installation.

Question, does it make any difference which CD device is Master and
Slave? If so, what happens if I switch the ribbon wire on the back of
these two devices?

Well, that is about all I have to share with you. Let me know if I got
off base anywhere.

Thanks again for helping me.

Frog


--
Nah-ah. I'm staying out of this. ... Now, here's my opinion.

Please followup in the newsgroup.
E-mail address is invalid due to spam-control.

Thanks for your continued help--it's so appreciated.

Sorry for the time that it has taken me to respond to your message... I
had to feel my way through some of this information gathering. Please
let me know if I haven't answered your questions anywhere along the line.

.... et al. wrote:
Frog wrote:

Thanks for responding to my call for help.


I leave your story below, but just write what i would check first.

#1) Futile exercise?

I'm starting to think that it may be a futile exercise--I hope not, though.

Is the CD you are trying to boot from even
bootable? Unlike their WinXP CDs, and many 'Restore' CDs with Win98SE
that comes with 'Brand Name' machines from so called OEM's ( Dell,
Siemens, Acer, Compaq, etc... ), a microsoft-issued Win98SE CD isn't
bootable.

My mistake on the bootable CD business. I thought the Microsoft-issued
Win98SE CD was bootable. How does the software on the Win98SE CD get
loaded on to a new computer for the first time? Oh well, that is not a
part of my present problem...something else for me to learn. I'm not
sure that I have a bootable CD to test my boot process--I will see if
one of my friends can help me with such a CD.

#2) Important! You write:
"Secondly, the SAMSUNG device is slow and may be on its way to the grave
yard---that is, unless some setting is causing it to be slow. The
technician at the shop (back when I was having the internal hard drive
installed) could not make it work and removed it from the system. After
my meltdown, I reinstalled it, and it has worked intermittently/and
started reading a CD very slowly since that re-installation."
You have a CD-Drive that was removed because some person couldn't get it
to work, and it is now working only intermittently for you and with
disappearing IDE devices in the Win98 Device Manager depending on
different BIOS settings. ¡Until you have everything else working fine,
remove this device from the equation! Disconnect Data- and Power-cables
from the Samsung Drive. Have only the Plextor CD-Drive, jumpered as
master, as a single device on the second IDE-channel.

I disconnected the Samsung device from the equation. The Plextor device
is now connected to the end connection on the ribbon cable. I then
entered the BIOS and designated the boot sequence to be the floppy,
Plextor, and then the hard drive. The computer was then restarted, and
no problems were noted in the Device Manager.

NOTE 1: Although I see no problems in the Device Manager, I'm not sure
whether the Plextor is being checked for a CD during the boot process.
I do see the yellow light showing on the front of the Plextor device
immediately after the computer is powered up. Is this an indicator
that it is looking for a bootable CD?

NOTE 2: I will start this note with the fact that I haven't yet read the
items you you suggested in your message--that will be next on my list.
Now to my NOTE 2. Master and Slave on the ribbon cable is where I am a
little lost, to say the least. Let me explain. The cable that connects
to the Secondary IDE on the motherboard is a 40 connector cable with
three connectors (one for the motherboard and two for devices). I am
confused about how to know which is Master and which is Slave. Based on
the information contained in DadiOH and MEB messages, the end would be
the Master--is that correct? The book that came with the motherboard
doesn't help with this situation---it talks about blue, gray and black
connectors. All of the connectors on my ribbon cable are black. Here
is what I found in my motherboard book:

Quote

Primary (Blue)/Secondary IDE Connectors
(40-1 pin PRIMARY ATA100 SECONDARY ATA100)
(40-1 pin PRIMARY IDE/SECONDARY IDE)
These connectors support the provided IDE hard disk ribbon cables.
Connect the cable's blue connector to the motherboard's primary
(recommended) or secondary IDE connector, and then connect the
corresponding gray connector to your UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66 slave device
(hard disk drive) and the black connector to your UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66
master device. It is recommended that non-UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66
devices be connected to the secondary IDE connector.

NOTE: UltraDMA/100 is backward compatible with DMA/66, DMA/33, and DMA
and with existing DMA devices and systems, so there is no need to
upgrade current EIDE/IDE drives and host systems.

Unquote

There is more on this page, however, it contains information about
installing two hard disks.

Well, this information would make better sense if I had a cable with
color coded connectors. As I said before, the Primary IDE is connected
to the blue Primary IDE terminal on the mother board (I'm sure of this
fact). The next connection up the cable is connected to the hard drive,
and the end connection is attached to the ZIP-100 device. The Secondary
IDE is connected to black terminal on the mother board (I'm also sure of
this fact). The next connection up the cable is not connected to any
device (was previously connected to the Samsung device), and the end
connection is attached to the Plextor device. I'm still not sure that
things are wired properly. I think they are properly connected (see
jumper comments later in this message).


#3) I don't know if you took apart and rebuilt the hardware in the
aftermath of its 'meltdown',

No, I changed nothing inside of my computer except re-placing the
120GB hard drive with the 30GB hard drive. Oh yes, and I added the
Samsung CD device back into the system--that device is again
disconnected from the system. The only changes I have made in the BIOS
was on the MAIN window (i.e., Secondary Master [Auto] - On the second
window of this entry, I changed Auto to CD-ROM) and to change the boot
sequence on the BOOT window.

if both CD-Drives perhaps are jumpered as
'master', but you describe looking inside it now. I would check to
confirm that on each IDE-cable one device was jumpered as master and one
as slave or as master if using only a single device (if you follow step
#2 above).
Does it make any difference which CD device is Master?, you ask.
If you have the newer '80-wire' IDE-cables then see _DadiOH_and _MEB_ ,
if you have the older '40-wire' cable there are in fact two different
ones behaving differently, but i think the special 'Cable Select Cable'
is uncommon.

The above instructions are at the edge of my technical knowledge. Here
is what I have learned about jumpering:

30GB hard drive:
Seagate U Series 5 - Model: 8T330621A
Presently set up as Master or single drive.
Other options a Drive is a Slave, Master with non-ATA compatible
slave, and Enables cable select.

ZIP-100 drive
Presently set up as Slave.
Other options a Master and Cable Select.

The Samsung CD device (not presently connected to the system) is set up
as Slave.

The Plextor CD device is set up as Master.

NOTE: The 120GB hard drive that was in my computer, when I arrived home
from the computer store, does not display a setup plan. It is a Western
Digital model WD1200BB-23RDAO product. I looked at another Western
Digital hard drive (not the same model number), and, if both settings
are the same for both hard drives, it was set as Master (center two pins
jumpered). The hard drive that was originally in this system, when it
was originally assembled, was jumpered as a Slave. The ZIP-100 and the
Plextor devices were added later, so that probably changed the jumpers
at that time. Now, that is what I learned as I was living at the edge
of my technical knowledge. Hope that responds to the comments made in
your message....


http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable80.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable.html

I will read these ASAP.

( Maybe i've just been lucky but for me IDE devices have 'worked' with
the master in the middle or at the end, alone or with a slave, using the
standard 40-wire cables. )

My Secondary IDE employs a 40-wire cable harness, while the primary is
an 80 wire cable. I moved the Plextor on the Secondary IDE (with no
Samsung device involved) from one plug to the other and noticed no
change whatsoever. Thus, I don't think the plug connected to a device
makes a difference (my limited technical knowledge speaking). It must
be the jumpers that make the difference.

Go with the advice from _DadiOH_ and _MEB_ .

#4) Primary IDE Channel ( with more info in your newer post. )
Check the jumpers on the HDD and Zip-Disk Drive. For how to attach the
Data-cable see point #3 above. And then check to see when using 'Auto'
on the BIOS Setup's main page that the HDD 'ST330621A' is found as the
Primary Master.

The HHD ST330621A is shown on the Main page as the Primary Master with
Type Auto. I looked up what Auto means in the motherboard book, and
here is what I found:

Quote

Type [Auto]
Select [Auto] to automatically detect an IDE hard disk drive. If
automatic detection is successful, the correct values will be filled in
for the remaining fields on the sub-menu. If automatic detection fails,
your hard disk drive may be too old or too new. You can try updating
your BIOS or enter the IDE hard disk drive parameters manually.

Unquote

The above makes me wonder if I was right in changing the Samsung Device
from Auto to CD-ROM on the main page. I believe it should be Auto,
if/when I re-install this device.

#5) Make sure you are using a Bootable CD and try again to change the
BIOS settings to have 'ATAPI CD-ROM' before 'IDE Hard Drive'.

I believe you are telling me to put the Plextor in a position above the
IDE Hard Drive--is that correct? If so, that is where it is; and no
problems appear in the Device Manager. It seems that my problems with
Device Manager start, when the Samsung device is added to the system.

I will try to find a disk that will test the CD device during startup.



1. I have done several things since receiving your message, that I would
like to recap for you.

First, I got inside of the box to confirm where the ribbon wires go
from the motherboard and to what device. Here are the results of that
survey:

The plug closest to the edge of the motherboard (titled FLOPPY on
the drawing in my book) is connected to the floppy drive (A Drive).

The Secondary IDE plug (second in from the side of the motherboard) is
connected first to the SAMSUNG-3230 CD device and then to the Plextor
CD-R device.

The Primary IDE plug (third in from the side of the motherboard) is
connected first to the hard drive and then to the ZIP-100 drive.

I concluded that all devices were plugged in correctly---maybe. I say
maybe, because I see the SAMSUNG CD device lighting up on startup even
when it is listed below the hard drive during startup. I turned off my
computer, put my Windows 98SE CD in the SAMSOUNG CD device, and started
my computer. The lights flickered on the front of the CD player during
startup, but it did not run the 98SE CD. I then moved it to a position
ahead of the hard drive in the boot sequence...the results were the same
as before. I do not see the lights flicker on the front of the PLEXTOR
CD player during startup.

2. Based on your message, I made a visit to the BIOS/MAIN window.
Here is the way I found four lines of information on this page, when I
arrived---followed by the actions I took:

Primary Mster [Auto] - I made no change to this line.

Primary Slave [Auto] - On the second window of this entry, I
changed Auto to ZIP-100.

Secondary Master [Auto] - On the second window of this entry, I
changed Auto to CD-ROM

Secondary Slave [Auto] - On the second window of this entry, I
changed Auto to CD-ROM

I restarted my computer and immediately looked in Device Manager.
There I found the hard drive partitions listed, but no ZIP or CD
drives were listed. So back to the BIOS again. I changed everything
back except the Secondary Slave entry which remained CD-ROM. A
restart and all of the devices were again present in the Device
Manager (no problems noted). I put 98SE CD in the SAMSUNG device; and
it very slowly auto started, and the Windows page appeared on screen.
(Hurray, this device had stopped reading and presenting information on
screen several days ago---good news). I then put the 98SE CD in the
PLEXTOR device; and it quickly auto started, and the Windows page
appeared on screen. Thus, this change did make a difference with the
SAMSUNG device---it again works.

3. I next visited the BIOS/BOOT page again. Here is the way this page
looked on arrival:

1. Removable Device [Legacy Floppy]
2. IDE Hard Drive {ST330621A]
3. ATAPI CD-ROM [Plextor CD-R PX-W1210A]
4. Other Boot Device [INT18 Device (Network)]

Of course, neither CD player is in the boot sequence before the hard
drive. Thus, I changed the order of these elements, and only two
combinations did not cause problems in the Device Manager. The first
no problem was as I found them above. The second was as follows:

1. Removable Device [Legacy Floppy]
2. Other Boot Device [INT18 Device (Network)]
3. IDE Hard Drive {ST330621A]
4. ATAPI CD-ROM [Plextor CD-R PX-W1210A]

This combination did not result in any problems in the Device Manager.
It, however, did not open the 98SE CD on boot-up.


I think the above is a summary of the steps I have taken in response
to the information presented in your message. I hope I did as you
suggested--if not, let me know and I will try again. I know that my
computer originally only had one CD device installed (SAMSUNG). It
was not until many years later that the second CD device was installed
(PLEXTOR). They both seemed to perform perfectly together prior to my
meltdown. No, to the best of my knowledge, a CD device has never been
in the boot sequence before the hard drive. Secondly, the SAMSUNG
device is slow and may be on its way to the grave yard---that is,
unless some setting is causing it to be slow. The technician at the
shop (back when I was having the internal hard drive installed) could
not make it work and removed it from the system. After my meltdown, I
reinstalled it, and it has worked intermittently/and started reading a
CD very slowly since that re-installation.

Question, does it make any difference which CD device is Master and
Slave? If so, what happens if I switch the ribbon wire on the back of
these two devices?

Well, that is about all I have to share with you. Let me know if I
got off base anywhere.

Thanks again for helping me.

Frog

Comments inline.....
"Frog" wrote in message
...

Is the CD you are trying to boot from even
bootable? Unlike their WinXP CDs, and many 'Restore' CDs with Win98SE that comes
with 'Brand Name' machines from so called OEM's ( Dell, Siemens, Acer, Compaq,
etc... ), a microsoft-issued Win98SE CD isn't bootable.

A RETAIL Win98SE CD is not bootable, but many OEM Win98SE CDs are.


My mistake on the bootable CD business. I thought the Microsoft-issued
Win98SE CD was bootable. How does the software on the Win98SE CD get
loaded on to a new computer for the first time?

By using a Win98 Boot floppy with CD-ROM support. Said floppy will have the
necessary CD drivers on it, and also the needed autoexec.bat and config.sys entries
to load those drivers. Once booted, the CD drive is readable, and the Win98 setup
program on it can be run.


I'm not
sure that I have a bootable CD to test my boot process--I will see if
one of my friends can help me with such a CD.

You can make one with the help of the download from he
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/


#2) Important! You write:
"Secondly, the SAMSUNG device is slow and may be on its way to the grave
yard---that is, unless some setting is causing it to be slow. The technician at
the shop (back when I was having the internal hard drive installed) could not
make it work and removed it from the system. After my meltdown, I reinstalled
it, and it has worked intermittently/and started reading a CD very slowly since
that re-installation."
You have a CD-Drive that was removed because some person couldn't get it to work,
and it is now working only intermittently for you and with disappearing IDE
devices in the Win98 Device Manager depending on different BIOS settings. ¡Until
you have everything else working fine, remove this device from the equation!
Disconnect Data- and Power-cables from the Samsung Drive. Have only the Plextor
CD-Drive, jumpered as master, as a single device on the second IDE-channel.

I disconnected the Samsung device from the equation. The Plextor device
is now connected to the end connection on the ribbon cable. I then
entered the BIOS and designated the boot sequence to be the floppy,
Plextor, and then the hard drive. The computer was then restarted, and
no problems were noted in the Device Manager.

I think it is fairly safe to say that the Samsung CD drive is defective, and you
should remove it and toss it into the nearest trash bin, please.


NOTE 1: Although I see no problems in the Device Manager, I'm not sure
whether the Plextor is being checked for a CD during the boot process.
I do see the yellow light showing on the front of the Plextor device
immediately after the computer is powered up. Is this an indicator
that it is looking for a bootable CD?

Not necessarily. Most systems will flash the optical drive lights as part of the
boot process, as the BIOS discovers the hardware upon startup.


NOTE 2: I will start this note with the fact that I haven't yet read the
items you you suggested in your message--that will be next on my list.
Now to my NOTE 2. Master and Slave on the ribbon cable is where I am a
little lost, to say the least. Let me explain. The cable that connects
to the Secondary IDE on the motherboard is a 40 connector cable with
three connectors (one for the motherboard and two for devices). I am
confused about how to know which is Master and which is Slave. Based on
the information contained in DadiOH and MEB messages, the end would be
the Master--is that correct? The book that came with the motherboard
doesn't help with this situation---it talks about blue, gray and black
connectors. All of the connectors on my ribbon cable are black.

You will usually only find blue, grey, and black connector combinations on the newer
80-wire, 40-pin cables. 40-wire, 40-pin cables will have the same color on all
three connectors, and it does not particularly matter with is used for which device.
IOW you can put the master optical drive on either connector, likewise the slave.
What matters in that scenario is that the drives are *jumpered* correctly as master
and slave. If you have only one device on the cable, it is best to use the end
connector. For consistency, I use the end connector for master even on the olde
40-wire cables, but it isn't necessary or sometimes even possible due to case
configuration.


Here is what I found in my motherboard book:

Quote

Primary (Blue)/Secondary IDE Connectors
(40-1 pin PRIMARY ATA100 SECONDARY ATA100)
(40-1 pin PRIMARY IDE/SECONDARY IDE)
These connectors support the provided IDE hard disk ribbon cables.
Connect the cable's blue connector to the motherboard's primary
(recommended) or secondary IDE connector, and then connect the
corresponding gray connector to your UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66 slave device
(hard disk drive) and the black connector to your UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66
master device. It is recommended that non-UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66
devices be connected to the secondary IDE connector.

NOTE: UltraDMA/100 is backward compatible with DMA/66, DMA/33, and DMA
and with existing DMA devices and systems, so there is no need to
upgrade current EIDE/IDE drives and host systems.

Unquote

There is more on this page, however, it contains information about
installing two hard disks.

Well, this information would make better sense if I had a cable with
color coded connectors. As I said before, the Primary IDE is connected
to the blue Primary IDE terminal on the mother board (I'm sure of this
fact). The next connection up the cable is connected to the hard drive,
and the end connection is attached to the ZIP-100 device.

As long as the drives are jumpered correctly (hard drive as master, zip drive as
slave), which connector is for which does not really matter. As I said, I *prefer*
using the end for the master device, but only for consistency. With standard 40-pin
IDE cables it does not matter.


The Secondary
IDE is connected to black terminal on the mother board (I'm also sure of
this fact). The next connection up the cable is not connected to any
device (was previously connected to the Samsung device), and the end
connection is attached to the Plextor device. I'm still not sure that
things are wired properly. I think they are properly connected (see
jumper comments later in this message).

That sounds fine.


#3) I don't know if you took apart and rebuilt the hardware in the aftermath of
its 'meltdown',

No, I changed nothing inside of my computer except re-placing the
120GB hard drive with the 30GB hard drive. Oh yes, and I added the
Samsung CD device back into the system--that device is again
disconnected from the system. The only changes I have made in the BIOS
was on the MAIN window (i.e., Secondary Master [Auto] - On the second
window of this entry, I changed Auto to CD-ROM) and to change the boot
sequence on the BOOT window.

Either setting (auto or cd-rom) should work.


if both CD-Drives perhaps are jumpered as
'master', but you describe looking inside it now. I would check to confirm that
on each IDE-cable one device was jumpered as master and one as slave or as master
if using only a single device (if you follow step #2 above).
Does it make any difference which CD device is Master?, you ask.
If you have the newer '80-wire' IDE-cables then see _DadiOH_and _MEB_ , if you
have the older '40-wire' cable there are in fact two different ones behaving
differently, but i think the special 'Cable Select Cable' is uncommon.

The above instructions are at the edge of my technical knowledge. Here
is what I have learned about jumpering:

30GB hard drive:
Seagate U Series 5 - Model: 8T330621A
Presently set up as Master or single drive.
Other options a Drive is a Slave, Master with non-ATA compatible
slave, and Enables cable select.

Good.


ZIP-100 drive
Presently set up as Slave.
Other options a Master and Cable Select.

Good.


The Samsung CD device (not presently connected to the system) is set up
as Slave.

Send this drive to the landfill or recycle it if possible.


The Plextor CD device is set up as Master.

Good.


NOTE: The 120GB hard drive that was in my computer, when I arrived home
from the computer store, does not display a setup plan. It is a Western
Digital model WD1200BB-23RDAO product. I looked at another Western
Digital hard drive (not the same model number), and, if both settings
are the same for both hard drives, it was set as Master (center two pins
jumpered). The hard drive that was originally in this system, when it
was originally assembled, was jumpered as a Slave. The ZIP-100 and the
Plextor devices were added later, so that probably changed the jumpers
at that time. Now, that is what I learned as I was living at the edge
of my technical knowledge. Hope that responds to the comments made in
your message....

Western Digital jumper settings:
http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc....& p_topview=1


http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable80.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable.html

I will read these ASAP.

( Maybe i've just been lucky but for me IDE devices have 'worked' with the master
in the middle or at the end, alone or with a slave, using the standard 40-wire
cables. )

My Secondary IDE employs a 40-wire cable harness, while the primary is
an 80 wire cable. I moved the Plextor on the Secondary IDE (with no
Samsung device involved) from one plug to the other and noticed no
change whatsoever. Thus, I don't think the plug connected to a device
makes a difference (my limited technical knowledge speaking). It must
be the jumpers that make the difference.

Yep, if you are using a standard 40-conductor IDE cable.


snip
The HHD ST330621A is shown on the Main page as the Primary Master with
Type Auto. I looked up what Auto means in the motherboard book, and
here is what I found:
snip
The above makes me wonder if I was right in changing the Samsung Device
from Auto to CD-ROM on the main page. I believe it should be Auto,
if/when I re-install this device.

The Samsung should be outside in the bin already. AFAIK either Auto or CD-ROM would
work here. Try Auto, when you get a replacement drive for the dead one.


#5) Make sure you are using a Bootable CD and try again to change the BIOS
settings to have 'ATAPI CD-ROM' before 'IDE Hard Drive'.

I believe you are telling me to put the Plextor in a position above the
IDE Hard Drive--is that correct? If so, that is where it is; and no
problems appear in the Device Manager. It seems that my problems with
Device Manager start, when the Samsung device is added to the system.

I will try to find a disk that will test the CD device during startup.

snip of older message
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP Shell/User, A+
http://dts-l.org/
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm

Frog wrote:

... et al. wrote:

#1) Futile exercise?

I'm starting to think that it may be a futile exercise--I hope not, though.

Trying to boot from the CD you were trying to boot from, perhaps.
Getting your working IDE Devices to work right in Win98SE and
allowing you to configure the BIOS to allow you to boot from a CD
... i think, that by removing the malworking Samsung-Drive, you've
accomplished that already.
I'll just make a few comments, since we have glee's response.

[snip]


You have a CD-Drive that was removed because some person couldn't get
it to work, and it is now working only intermittently for you and with
disappearing IDE devices in the Win98 Device Manager depending on
different BIOS settings. ¡Until you have everything else working fine,
remove this device from the equation! Disconnect Data- and
Power-cables from the Samsung Drive. Have only the Plextor CD-Drive,
jumpered as master, as a single device on the second IDE-channel.

I disconnected the Samsung device from the equation. The Plextor device
is now connected to the end connection on the ribbon cable. I then
entered the BIOS and designated the boot sequence to be the floppy,
Plextor, and then the hard drive. The computer was then restarted, and
no problems were noted in the Device Manager.

See, this was all it took. And i think that if you try booting
with a bootable CD now, that this should work.

[snip]



#3) I don't know if you took apart and rebuilt the hardware in the
aftermath of its 'meltdown',

No, I changed nothing inside of my computer except re-placing the
120GB hard drive with the 30GB hard drive. Oh yes, and I added the
Samsung CD device back into the system--that device is again
disconnected from the system.

[snip]


The Samsung CD device (not presently connected to the system) is set up
as Slave.

The Plextor CD device is set up as Master.

This was the important stuff. I thought there was a risk you had
had first one CD player in the machine alone and then the other,
and that both were still jumpered as master when you now tried to
use them together on the same IDE channel. Fine..


NOTE: The 120GB hard drive that was in my computer, when I arrived home
from the computer store, does not display a setup plan. It is a Western
Digital model WD1200BB-23RDAO product. I looked at another Western
Digital hard drive (not the same model number), and, if both settings
are the same for both hard drives, it was set as Master (center two pins
jumpered).

Glee posted a link for jumper-settings for Western Digital
branded HDD. For the time when you put yours back in some
machine, i just want to stress that how to jumper these differs
from most other brands of HDD's in that there is one
Jumper-setting when used as slave, and *two* different one when
used as master. One when there is a slave-device present and
another jumper-setting when there is no Slave-device present on
that IDE-channel.



http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable80.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable.html

I will read these ASAP.

For most of the questions you asked in your post, concerning
cables, master and slave positions, the things that i've snipped,
i suggest that you read the texts on the links i posted, look at
the pictures there and compare that information with you own
hardware. You will know as much about these things as i do.

[snip]



The HHD ST330621A is shown on the Main page as the Primary Master with
Type Auto. I looked up what Auto means in the motherboard book, and
here is what I found:

Quote

Type [Auto]
Select [Auto] to automatically detect an IDE hard disk drive. If
automatic detection is successful, the correct values will be filled in
for the remaining fields on the sub-menu. If automatic detection fails,
your hard disk drive may be too old or too new. You can try updating
your BIOS or enter the IDE hard disk drive parameters manually.

Unquote

The above makes me wonder if I was right in changing the Samsung Device
from Auto to CD-ROM on the main page. I believe it should be Auto,
if/when I re-install this device.

I don't see why you think it *should* be Auto.
It was only because you had problems we didn't know the cause
behind that i also want to point out that location in the BIOS
Setup as a variable for you to check out. (On my similar
motherboard) I have it set to 'Auto' for all four IDE positions,
so that when i change drives around i don't have to remember to
go there and change anything.

In the end all is well .. well except if you are a Samsung
CD-Drive located in your household and have just been taken off
life-support.


--
Nah-ah. I'm staying out of this. ... Now, here's my opinion.

Please followup in the newsgroup.
E-mail address is invalid due to spam-control.

Hello, Glen....

This whole melt-down has been several things to me. It has taught
me to:
--have a backup system in place that works (I had one, but the start-up
disks did not work), and
--make sure that you backup frequently (the backup that finally worked
for me was over a year old).
I have also learned more than I thought I would ever know about such
things as BIOS, jumpers, adjusting my old backup from a dial-up a FiOS
connection, how to get my virus scan working again, remembering to
adjust my time for daylight savings time, etc.. This has been one
humongous learning experience, that I hope to never have to undergo
again. I'm still not finished with the fallout of the melt-down of my
system. I want to remove/replace the 30GB hard drive presently in my
system with the new 120GB hard drive I recently purchased. Then, I
would like to attempt to restore my Acronis backup from my external hard
drive to the internal hard drive. If that is successful, I will be able
to recover lost genealogy and picture files. That is what lies ahead
for me before this melt-down is history.

Well, that is enough about my downers for today. Onward to
responding to your message (see comments below your comments where
appropriate.

Thanks, as always, to you and all of the others who came to my
rescue. I just wish I had a thimbleful of the computer knowledge
others display on this discussion group.

Frog


glee wrote:
Comments inline.....
"Frog" wrote in message
...

Is the CD you are trying to boot from even
bootable? Unlike their WinXP CDs, and many 'Restore' CDs with Win98SE
that comes with 'Brand Name' machines from so called OEM's ( Dell,
Siemens, Acer, Compaq, etc... ), a microsoft-issued Win98SE CD isn't
bootable.

A RETAIL Win98SE CD is not bootable, but many OEM Win98SE CDs are.

I believe my Win98SE CD is an OEM copy. The only thing on this CD is
Win98SE, and the disk has the following printed on it:

For distribution with a new PC only. For product support, contact the
manufacturer of your PC.
SECOND EDITION
(C) 1981-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Microsoft
products are licensed to OEMs by Microsoft Licensing Inc., a wholly
owned subsidery of Microsoft Corporation.
0499 Part No. X05 29232

I know that when I put this CD in the system, while in normal Windows
mode, it immediately starts running. The first window is a menu of
things you can do. Does that sound like an OEM copy?


My mistake on the bootable CD business. I thought the Microsoft-issued
Win98SE CD was bootable. How does the software on the Win98SE CD get
loaded on to a new computer for the first time?

By using a Win98 Boot floppy with CD-ROM support. Said floppy will have
the necessary CD drivers on it, and also the needed autoexec.bat and
config.sys entries to load those drivers. Once booted, the CD drive is
readable, and the Win98 setup program on it can be run.

Thanks for the education. I was wondering how this worked...it was on
my list of items to research.


I'm not
sure that I have a bootable CD to test my boot process--I will see if
one of my friends can help me with such a CD.

You can make one with the help of the download from he
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

I will visit this site and make myself a bootable CD. I will be back,
however, if the boot process skips finding it in my Plextor CD device.


#2) Important! You write:
"Secondly, the SAMSUNG device is slow and may be on its way to the
grave yard---that is, unless some setting is causing it to be slow.
The technician at the shop (back when I was having the internal hard
drive installed) could not make it work and removed it from the
system. After my meltdown, I reinstalled it, and it has worked
intermittently/and started reading a CD very slowly since that
re-installation."
You have a CD-Drive that was removed because some person couldn't get
it to work, and it is now working only intermittently for you and
with disappearing IDE devices in the Win98 Device Manager depending
on different BIOS settings. ¡Until you have everything else working
fine, remove this device from the equation! Disconnect Data- and
Power-cables from the Samsung Drive. Have only the Plextor CD-Drive,
jumpered as master, as a single device on the second IDE-channel.

I disconnected the Samsung device from the equation. The Plextor device
is now connected to the end connection on the ribbon cable. I then
entered the BIOS and designated the boot sequence to be the floppy,
Plextor, and then the hard drive. The computer was then restarted, and
no problems were noted in the Device Manager.

I think it is fairly safe to say that the Samsung CD drive is defective,
and you should remove it and toss it into the nearest trash bin, please.

I have had nothing but troubles with the Samsung CD drive, since this
melt-down started. I have come to the conclusion that I must give up on
making it work and get a new CD device.


NOTE 1: Although I see no problems in the Device Manager, I'm not sure
whether the Plextor is being checked for a CD during the boot process.
I do see the yellow light showing on the front of the Plextor device
immediately after the computer is powered up. Is this an indicator
that it is looking for a bootable CD?

Not necessarily. Most systems will flash the optical drive lights as
part of the boot process, as the BIOS discovers the hardware upon startup.

I understand.


NOTE 2: I will start this note with the fact that I haven't yet read the
items you you suggested in your message--that will be next on my list.
Now to my NOTE 2. Master and Slave on the ribbon cable is where I am a
little lost, to say the least. Let me explain. The cable that connects
to the Secondary IDE on the motherboard is a 40 connector cable with
three connectors (one for the motherboard and two for devices). I am
confused about how to know which is Master and which is Slave. Based on
the information contained in DadiOH and MEB messages, the end would be
the Master--is that correct? The book that came with the motherboard
doesn't help with this situation---it talks about blue, gray and black
connectors. All of the connectors on my ribbon cable are black.

You will usually only find blue, grey, and black connector combinations
on the newer 80-wire, 40-pin cables. 40-wire, 40-pin cables will have
the same color on all three connectors, and it does not particularly
matter with is used for which device. IOW you can put the master optical
drive on either connector, likewise the slave. What matters in that
scenario is that the drives are *jumpered* correctly as master and
slave. If you have only one device on the cable, it is best to use the
end connector. For consistency, I use the end connector for master even
on the olde 40-wire cables, but it isn't necessary or sometimes even
possible due to case configuration.

Thanks. I think I came to the same conclusion while attempting to make
the boot process work.


Here is what I found in my motherboard book:

Quote

Primary (Blue)/Secondary IDE Connectors
(40-1 pin PRIMARY ATA100 SECONDARY ATA100)
(40-1 pin PRIMARY IDE/SECONDARY IDE)
These connectors support the provided IDE hard disk ribbon cables.
Connect the cable's blue connector to the motherboard's primary
(recommended) or secondary IDE connector, and then connect the
corresponding gray connector to your UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66 slave device
(hard disk drive) and the black connector to your UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66
master device. It is recommended that non-UltraDMA100/UltraDMA66
devices be connected to the secondary IDE connector.

NOTE: UltraDMA/100 is backward compatible with DMA/66, DMA/33, and DMA
and with existing DMA devices and systems, so there is no need to
upgrade current EIDE/IDE drives and host systems.

Unquote

There is more on this page, however, it contains information about
installing two hard disks.

Well, this information would make better sense if I had a cable with
color coded connectors. As I said before, the Primary IDE is connected
to the blue Primary IDE terminal on the mother board (I'm sure of this
fact). The next connection up the cable is connected to the hard drive,
and the end connection is attached to the ZIP-100 device.

As long as the drives are jumpered correctly (hard drive as master, zip
drive as slave), which connector is for which does not really matter. As
I said, I *prefer* using the end for the master device, but only for
consistency. With standard 40-pin IDE cables it does not matter.


The Secondary
IDE is connected to black terminal on the mother board (I'm also sure of
this fact). The next connection up the cable is not connected to any
device (was previously connected to the Samsung device), and the end
connection is attached to the Plextor device. I'm still not sure that
things are wired properly. I think they are properly connected (see
jumper comments later in this message).

That sounds fine.


#3) I don't know if you took apart and rebuilt the hardware in the
aftermath of its 'meltdown',

No, I changed nothing inside of my computer except re-placing the
120GB hard drive with the 30GB hard drive. Oh yes, and I added the
Samsung CD device back into the system--that device is again
disconnected from the system. The only changes I have made in the BIOS
was on the MAIN window (i.e., Secondary Master [Auto] - On the second
window of this entry, I changed Auto to CD-ROM) and to change the boot
sequence on the BOOT window.

Either setting (auto or cd-rom) should work.

Okay.


if both CD-Drives perhaps are jumpered as
'master', but you describe looking inside it now. I would check to
confirm that on each IDE-cable one device was jumpered as master and
one as slave or as master if using only a single device (if you
follow step #2 above).
Does it make any difference which CD device is Master?, you ask.
If you have the newer '80-wire' IDE-cables then see _DadiOH_and _MEB_
, if you have the older '40-wire' cable there are in fact two
different ones behaving differently, but i think the special 'Cable
Select Cable' is uncommon.

The above instructions are at the edge of my technical knowledge. Here
is what I have learned about jumpering:

30GB hard drive:
Seagate U Series 5 - Model: 8T330621A
Presently set up as Master or single drive.
Other options a Drive is a Slave, Master with non-ATA compatible
slave, and Enables cable select.

Good.


ZIP-100 drive
Presently set up as Slave.
Other options a Master and Cable Select.

Good.


The Samsung CD device (not presently connected to the system) is set up
as Slave.

Send this drive to the landfill or recycle it if possible.


The Plextor CD device is set up as Master.

Good.

Thanks for confirming these settings were correct. I can now move on to
other tasks on my list. By the way, is there another way of knowing how
each piece of equipment is jumpered short of removing it and looking at
its case? I know how to do that for the Western Digital hard drives
based on the web page you included in your message.


NOTE: The 120GB hard drive that was in my computer, when I arrived home
from the computer store, does not display a setup plan. It is a Western
Digital model WD1200BB-23RDAO product. I looked at another Western
Digital hard drive (not the same model number), and, if both settings
are the same for both hard drives, it was set as Master (center two pins
jumpered). The hard drive that was originally in this system, when it
was originally assembled, was jumpered as a Slave. The ZIP-100 and the
Plextor devices were added later, so that probably changed the jumpers
at that time. Now, that is what I learned as I was living at the edge
of my technical knowledge. Hope that responds to the comments made in
your message....

Western Digital jumper settings:
http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc....& p_topview=1

Thanks for telling me about this web page--very useful information on
this and other pages.




http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable80.html
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCable.html

I will read these ASAP.

( Maybe i've just been lucky but for me IDE devices have 'worked'
with the master in the middle or at the end, alone or with a slave,
using the standard 40-wire cables. )

My Secondary IDE employs a 40-wire cable harness, while the primary is
an 80 wire cable. I moved the Plextor on the Secondary IDE (with no
Samsung device involved) from one plug to the other and noticed no
change whatsoever. Thus, I don't think the plug connected to a device
makes a difference (my limited technical knowledge speaking). It must
be the jumpers that make the difference.

Yep, if you are using a standard 40-conductor IDE cable.

Makes me feel good that I got this one right.....


snip
The HHD ST330621A is shown on the Main page as the Primary Master with
Type Auto. I looked up what Auto means in the motherboard book, and
here is what I found:
snip
The above makes me wonder if I was right in changing the Samsung Device
from Auto to CD-ROM on the main page. I believe it should be Auto,
if/when I re-install this device.

The Samsung should be outside in the bin already. AFAIK either Auto or
CD-ROM would work here. Try Auto, when you get a replacement drive for
the dead one.

Okay.


#5) Make sure you are using a Bootable CD and try again to change the
BIOS settings to have 'ATAPI CD-ROM' before 'IDE Hard Drive'.

I believe you are telling me to put the Plextor in a position above the
IDE Hard Drive--is that correct? If so, that is where it is; and no
problems appear in the Device Manager. It seems that my problems with
Device Manager start, when the Samsung device is added to the system.

I will try to find a disk that will test the CD device during startup.

snip of older message