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Problem with accessing a partition



 
 
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  #31  
Old May 28th 10, 06:30 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Thu, 27 May 2010 13:11:31 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

While browsing the Partition Magic installation CD-ROM, I found extra
utilities on it. One of them was the ptedit32.exe, i.e., Partition Table
Editor v1.1 of 2002. The nice thing about this editor is that it is still
downloadable from the Internet and its interface is in plain English.

I used it to change my 0Bs to 0Cs, but I failed. To be more precise, I was
able to make such changes with this utility and save them (they even were in
place after rebooting the computer), but everything returned to the previous
situation, as soon, as I opened Partition Magic.


A simple test here might show whether we're on the right track. Use
Partition Magic to make your Win98 system partition active and then use
ptedit.exe (I assume you boot using a DOS floppy to use ptedit) to
change the partition types from 0B to 0C. Then you could start Win98
and see if it can see the partitions properly and also that you have no
phantom drives in Explorer. Phantom drives have a drive letter but if
you try to view them in Explorer it will tell you the volume isn't
formatted. If the partitions don't appear then the problem is
elsewhere.

Although your reasoning about my logical partitions seems to be OK, there is
probably another limitation or maybe a deficiency of Partition Magic, which
doesn't allow it. By the way, I found on the Internet an another example of
the similar situation with 2 logical 0B partitions within the ExtenedX
partition (cf. www.goodells.net.multiboot.ptedit.htm).


The partition type code issue is a bit muddled due to historical
factors. Type 0x0B is FAT32 with CHS access and type 0x0C is FAT32 with
LBA access. I believe that Win98 respects this. But all versions of
Win NT always use LBA access. So XP doesn't care whether your
partitions are 0x0B or 0x0C; it always uses LBA. If I create a FAT32
volume in XP it always gets the 0x0B code even when it's past the 1024
cylinder boundary. So if Partition Magic does the same I wouldn't call
it a bug or even a deficiency. But it can cause problems with Win98
IO.SYS so it seems a bit silly to me.

So please try the ptedit test above and tell me if it helps. I think a
better long-term solution would be to make your system multiboot with
the Win98 system partition as the active partition. Then you could
select which O/S you want at boot time and not have to play with
changing the partition table. I think this can be done without mucking
up the drive letters in either O/S. Does this approach appeal to you ?

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #32  
Old May 28th 10, 11:29 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

1. I always use Partition Magic for DOS (on rescue disks) to make the Win98se
partition active. This version doesn't have all options of the Windows
version. In order to complete the changes made to my hard drive(s), I have to
reboot to Win98se.
2. No, I never used ptedit.exe, which is the DOS version of this editor, but
ptedit32.exe, running it either from Win98 or from WinXP. Under such
circumstances, I never had phantom drives in Explorer.
3. Is use of the ptedit.exe (from DOS) essential for the suggested by you
test?
4. MS approach to multibooting has documented disadvantages, especially in
case you decide to get rid of Win98 at a later time. A better solution would
be multibooting approach of Partition Magic. My approach separating
completely both OSs isn't perfect either, but fortunately, I'm not switching
too often to Win98 and believe to abandon it anyway within a year or so.

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 13:11:31 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

While browsing the Partition Magic installation CD-ROM, I found extra
utilities on it. One of them was the ptedit32.exe, i.e., Partition Table
Editor v1.1 of 2002. The nice thing about this editor is that it is still
downloadable from the Internet and its interface is in plain English.

I used it to change my 0Bs to 0Cs, but I failed. To be more precise, I was
able to make such changes with this utility and save them (they even were in
place after rebooting the computer), but everything returned to the previous
situation, as soon, as I opened Partition Magic.


A simple test here might show whether we're on the right track. Use
Partition Magic to make your Win98 system partition active and then use
ptedit.exe (I assume you boot using a DOS floppy to use ptedit) to
change the partition types from 0B to 0C. Then you could start Win98
and see if it can see the partitions properly and also that you have no
phantom drives in Explorer. Phantom drives have a drive letter but if
you try to view them in Explorer it will tell you the volume isn't
formatted. If the partitions don't appear then the problem is
elsewhere.

Although your reasoning about my logical partitions seems to be OK, there is
probably another limitation or maybe a deficiency of Partition Magic, which
doesn't allow it. By the way, I found on the Internet an another example of
the similar situation with 2 logical 0B partitions within the ExtenedX
partition (cf. www.goodells.net.multiboot.ptedit.htm).


The partition type code issue is a bit muddled due to historical
factors. Type 0x0B is FAT32 with CHS access and type 0x0C is FAT32 with
LBA access. I believe that Win98 respects this. But all versions of
Win NT always use LBA access. So XP doesn't care whether your
partitions are 0x0B or 0x0C; it always uses LBA. If I create a FAT32
volume in XP it always gets the 0x0B code even when it's past the 1024
cylinder boundary. So if Partition Magic does the same I wouldn't call
it a bug or even a deficiency. But it can cause problems with Win98
IO.SYS so it seems a bit silly to me.

So please try the ptedit test above and tell me if it helps. I think a
better long-term solution would be to make your system multiboot with
the Win98 system partition as the active partition. Then you could
select which O/S you want at boot time and not have to play with
changing the partition table. I think this can be done without mucking
up the drive letters in either O/S. Does this approach appeal to you ?

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #33  
Old May 28th 10, 11:29 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

1. I always use Partition Magic for DOS (on rescue disks) to make the Win98se
partition active. This version doesn't have all options of the Windows
version. In order to complete the changes made to my hard drive(s), I have to
reboot to Win98se.
2. No, I never used ptedit.exe, which is the DOS version of this editor, but
ptedit32.exe, running it either from Win98 or from WinXP. Under such
circumstances, I never had phantom drives in Explorer.
3. Is use of the ptedit.exe (from DOS) essential for the suggested by you
test?
4. MS approach to multibooting has documented disadvantages, especially in
case you decide to get rid of Win98 at a later time. A better solution would
be multibooting approach of Partition Magic. My approach separating
completely both OSs isn't perfect either, but fortunately, I'm not switching
too often to Win98 and believe to abandon it anyway within a year or so.

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 13:11:31 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

While browsing the Partition Magic installation CD-ROM, I found extra
utilities on it. One of them was the ptedit32.exe, i.e., Partition Table
Editor v1.1 of 2002. The nice thing about this editor is that it is still
downloadable from the Internet and its interface is in plain English.

I used it to change my 0Bs to 0Cs, but I failed. To be more precise, I was
able to make such changes with this utility and save them (they even were in
place after rebooting the computer), but everything returned to the previous
situation, as soon, as I opened Partition Magic.


A simple test here might show whether we're on the right track. Use
Partition Magic to make your Win98 system partition active and then use
ptedit.exe (I assume you boot using a DOS floppy to use ptedit) to
change the partition types from 0B to 0C. Then you could start Win98
and see if it can see the partitions properly and also that you have no
phantom drives in Explorer. Phantom drives have a drive letter but if
you try to view them in Explorer it will tell you the volume isn't
formatted. If the partitions don't appear then the problem is
elsewhere.

Although your reasoning about my logical partitions seems to be OK, there is
probably another limitation or maybe a deficiency of Partition Magic, which
doesn't allow it. By the way, I found on the Internet an another example of
the similar situation with 2 logical 0B partitions within the ExtenedX
partition (cf. www.goodells.net.multiboot.ptedit.htm).


The partition type code issue is a bit muddled due to historical
factors. Type 0x0B is FAT32 with CHS access and type 0x0C is FAT32 with
LBA access. I believe that Win98 respects this. But all versions of
Win NT always use LBA access. So XP doesn't care whether your
partitions are 0x0B or 0x0C; it always uses LBA. If I create a FAT32
volume in XP it always gets the 0x0B code even when it's past the 1024
cylinder boundary. So if Partition Magic does the same I wouldn't call
it a bug or even a deficiency. But it can cause problems with Win98
IO.SYS so it seems a bit silly to me.

So please try the ptedit test above and tell me if it helps. I think a
better long-term solution would be to make your system multiboot with
the Win98 system partition as the active partition. Then you could
select which O/S you want at boot time and not have to play with
changing the partition table. I think this can be done without mucking
up the drive letters in either O/S. Does this approach appeal to you ?

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #34  
Old May 29th 10, 12:24 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Fri, 28 May 2010 15:29:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

3. Is use of the ptedit.exe (from DOS) essential for the suggested by you
test?


No, you could use any suitable program. But it might be safer to do the
changes outside of Win98 (e.g. DOS) because you are seeing the problem
when running Win98. Also you mentioned the difference after a reboot
which suggests that some of the effects of the change are only detected
when Win98 is starting.

4. MS approach to multibooting has documented disadvantages, especially in
case you decide to get rid of Win98 at a later time.


Yup, nothing's perfect. For instance NTLDR has a limitation of 10
entries in the BOOT.INI file. Of course, only silly people like me will
ever hit this limit so it's not really a problem.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #35  
Old May 29th 10, 12:24 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Fri, 28 May 2010 15:29:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

3. Is use of the ptedit.exe (from DOS) essential for the suggested by you
test?


No, you could use any suitable program. But it might be safer to do the
changes outside of Win98 (e.g. DOS) because you are seeing the problem
when running Win98. Also you mentioned the difference after a reboot
which suggests that some of the effects of the change are only detected
when Win98 is starting.

4. MS approach to multibooting has documented disadvantages, especially in
case you decide to get rid of Win98 at a later time.


Yup, nothing's perfect. For instance NTLDR has a limitation of 10
entries in the BOOT.INI file. Of course, only silly people like me will
ever hit this limit so it's not really a problem.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #36  
Old May 29th 10, 09:23 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

1. To be precise, I was able to make the 0B-0C changes with (pedit32.exe)
and save them (either in Win98 or WinXP). They were in place after rebooting
the computer. However, these changes disappeared, after opening of Partition
Magic (either in DOS or in Windows). It seems, Partition Magic didn't accept
the changes, for some reason.

2. Just to be on a safe side, I performed the suggested by you test. This
time, I restarted the computer from Win98 to DOS and then ran pedit.exe from
a floppy). The results were the same as before.

3. To check, if my E: partitions (of only 7.5GB) wasn't a culprit, I used
Partition Magic from DOS (rescue disks) to enlarge it by 1 GB and then
repeated the test, but the results were the same, as before.

4. Some data listed in the Boot Record Table for the partition E: in
ptedit.exe seem to me strange, namely
- Hidden Sectors: 117852903
- First Cluster of Root: 141346
These are rather big numbers, whereas for D: they a 63 and 2, respectively.

5. Finally, in my Extended Partition Table, there are 2 non-zero entries in
the Type column: 0B describing my D: partition (I corrected it to 0C) and 05,
which describes an Extended Partition and not the ExtendedX one, which should
have 0F entry, as in the Partition Table at sector 0. I don't understand this
either and I didn't correct it.

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 15:29:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

3. Is use of the ptedit.exe (from DOS) essential for the suggested by you
test?


No, you could use any suitable program. But it might be safer to do the
changes outside of Win98 (e.g. DOS) because you are seeing the problem
when running Win98. Also you mentioned the difference after a reboot
which suggests that some of the effects of the change are only detected
when Win98 is starting.

4. MS approach to multibooting has documented disadvantages, especially in
case you decide to get rid of Win98 at a later time.


Yup, nothing's perfect. For instance NTLDR has a limitation of 10
entries in the BOOT.INI file. Of course, only silly people like me will
ever hit this limit so it's not really a problem.

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #37  
Old May 29th 10, 09:23 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

1. To be precise, I was able to make the 0B-0C changes with (pedit32.exe)
and save them (either in Win98 or WinXP). They were in place after rebooting
the computer. However, these changes disappeared, after opening of Partition
Magic (either in DOS or in Windows). It seems, Partition Magic didn't accept
the changes, for some reason.

2. Just to be on a safe side, I performed the suggested by you test. This
time, I restarted the computer from Win98 to DOS and then ran pedit.exe from
a floppy). The results were the same as before.

3. To check, if my E: partitions (of only 7.5GB) wasn't a culprit, I used
Partition Magic from DOS (rescue disks) to enlarge it by 1 GB and then
repeated the test, but the results were the same, as before.

4. Some data listed in the Boot Record Table for the partition E: in
ptedit.exe seem to me strange, namely
- Hidden Sectors: 117852903
- First Cluster of Root: 141346
These are rather big numbers, whereas for D: they a 63 and 2, respectively.

5. Finally, in my Extended Partition Table, there are 2 non-zero entries in
the Type column: 0B describing my D: partition (I corrected it to 0C) and 05,
which describes an Extended Partition and not the ExtendedX one, which should
have 0F entry, as in the Partition Table at sector 0. I don't understand this
either and I didn't correct it.

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Fri, 28 May 2010 15:29:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

3. Is use of the ptedit.exe (from DOS) essential for the suggested by you
test?


No, you could use any suitable program. But it might be safer to do the
changes outside of Win98 (e.g. DOS) because you are seeing the problem
when running Win98. Also you mentioned the difference after a reboot
which suggests that some of the effects of the change are only detected
when Win98 is starting.

4. MS approach to multibooting has documented disadvantages, especially in
case you decide to get rid of Win98 at a later time.


Yup, nothing's perfect. For instance NTLDR has a limitation of 10
entries in the BOOT.INI file. Of course, only silly people like me will
ever hit this limit so it's not really a problem.

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #38  
Old May 30th 10, 11:46 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Sat, 29 May 2010 13:23:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

2. Just to be on a safe side, I performed the suggested by you test. This
time, I restarted the computer from Win98 to DOS and then ran pedit.exe from
a floppy). The results were the same as before.


Thanks for trying.

4. Some data listed in the Boot Record Table for the partition E: in
ptedit.exe seem to me strange, namely
- Hidden Sectors: 117852903
- First Cluster of Root: 141346
These are rather big numbers, whereas for D: they a 63 and 2, respectively.


These are strange values. The hidden sectors value suggests that the
data is nowhere near the boot record. This could indicate how Partition
Magic moves data when you resize a partition.

5. Finally, in my Extended Partition Table, there are 2 non-zero entries in
the Type column: 0B describing my D: partition (I corrected it to 0C) and 05,
which describes an Extended Partition and not the ExtendedX one, which should
have 0F entry, as in the Partition Table at sector 0. I don't understand this
either and I didn't correct it.


The 0x05 is correct. The continuation entries are always 0x05 even when
the extended partition starts with a 0x0F code.

I'm rather lost here because I don't know anything about Partition
Magic. Assume that originally your disk had two primary partitions and
then your extended one with two volumes. When you increased the size of
the second primary partition perhaps PM made space by moving the D:
volume to after the E: volume and changing the links in the extended
partition to suit. It would be easier to move 11GB than 30GB. As far
as I know each partition has to be contiguous but the volumes in the
extended partition can have spare areas between them and don't have to
be in ascending order by disk address.

It's a double-edged sword. PM is very clever in that it can resize
partitions but it might be producing layouts that confuse things like
Win98. It should be possible to determine your disk layout by using
something like Ranish Partition Manager but changing things to help
Win98 might cause problems when you later use PM to resize a partition
or select the other O/S.

Hopefully someone with ideas or knowledge of PM will chip in here. I'm
hesitant to suggest further changes due to the risk of wrecking your
setup.

It is possible to have Win98 and XP on a disk and select the one you
want by changing the boot flag using something like FDISK. This used to
be common in the old days and I still do it on some PCs.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #39  
Old May 30th 10, 11:46 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Sat, 29 May 2010 13:23:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

2. Just to be on a safe side, I performed the suggested by you test. This
time, I restarted the computer from Win98 to DOS and then ran pedit.exe from
a floppy). The results were the same as before.


Thanks for trying.

4. Some data listed in the Boot Record Table for the partition E: in
ptedit.exe seem to me strange, namely
- Hidden Sectors: 117852903
- First Cluster of Root: 141346
These are rather big numbers, whereas for D: they a 63 and 2, respectively.


These are strange values. The hidden sectors value suggests that the
data is nowhere near the boot record. This could indicate how Partition
Magic moves data when you resize a partition.

5. Finally, in my Extended Partition Table, there are 2 non-zero entries in
the Type column: 0B describing my D: partition (I corrected it to 0C) and 05,
which describes an Extended Partition and not the ExtendedX one, which should
have 0F entry, as in the Partition Table at sector 0. I don't understand this
either and I didn't correct it.


The 0x05 is correct. The continuation entries are always 0x05 even when
the extended partition starts with a 0x0F code.

I'm rather lost here because I don't know anything about Partition
Magic. Assume that originally your disk had two primary partitions and
then your extended one with two volumes. When you increased the size of
the second primary partition perhaps PM made space by moving the D:
volume to after the E: volume and changing the links in the extended
partition to suit. It would be easier to move 11GB than 30GB. As far
as I know each partition has to be contiguous but the volumes in the
extended partition can have spare areas between them and don't have to
be in ascending order by disk address.

It's a double-edged sword. PM is very clever in that it can resize
partitions but it might be producing layouts that confuse things like
Win98. It should be possible to determine your disk layout by using
something like Ranish Partition Manager but changing things to help
Win98 might cause problems when you later use PM to resize a partition
or select the other O/S.

Hopefully someone with ideas or knowledge of PM will chip in here. I'm
hesitant to suggest further changes due to the risk of wrecking your
setup.

It is possible to have Win98 and XP on a disk and select the one you
want by changing the boot flag using something like FDISK. This used to
be common in the old days and I still do it on some PCs.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #40  
Old May 31st 10, 12:23 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

Thanks a lot for your interesting comments and helpful ideas.
I'm sorry to bother you again with my questions, hopefully last time, but
this might lead to a breakthrough.

1. These are strange values. The hidden sector values suggest that the data is nowhere near the boot record. This could indicate how Partition Magic moves data when you resize a partition.


My logical partitions D: and E: are not system partitions. They are so to
say chained within my Extended partition. Can these strange values mean that
the boot record for E: is located just before the beginning of E: and that
these values reflect their relative distance from the beginning of the
Extended partition? Is such a description used for logical partitions?

2. As far as I know each partition has to be contiguous but the volumes in the extended partition can have spare areas between them and don't have to be in ascending order by disk address.


This is a very important info that I was unaware of. Let me return here to
the PM resizing procedure.
To resize my WinXP(* partition located in the following sequence of
partitions: [C: Win98, (* WinXP, D:, E:, Unallocated] by 7GB, PM had to go
through 5 'elementary' steps in the order displayed below:
a. Resize Extended (* by 7GB (taken from Unallocated)
b. Move E: up by 7GB
c. Move D: up by 7GB
d. Resize Extended (* down by 7GB
e. Resize WinXP (* by 7GB
Are these details somehow useful for confirmation of your idea about these
strange values?

3. It is possible to have Win98 and XP on a disk and select the one you want by changing the boot flag using something like FDISK.


You're completely right. One can easily do it, e.g. in the ptedit32.exe, by
changing the flags. 'Boot flags' 00 and 80 stand for not bootable and
bootable, and 'type flags' 0C and 1C stand for FAT32X and Hidden Fat32X
partitions, respectively. PM has also 2 additional utilities (BootDisk) for
activation and/or deactivation of a primary partition. One can easily change
them.

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2010 13:23:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

2. Just to be on a safe side, I performed the suggested by you test. This
time, I restarted the computer from Win98 to DOS and then ran pedit.exe from
a floppy). The results were the same as before.


Thanks for trying.

4. Some data listed in the Boot Record Table for the partition E: in
ptedit.exe seem to me strange, namely
- Hidden Sectors: 117852903
- First Cluster of Root: 141346
These are rather big numbers, whereas for D: they a 63 and 2, respectively.


These are strange values. The hidden sectors value suggests that the
data is nowhere near the boot record. This could indicate how Partition
Magic moves data when you resize a partition.

5. Finally, in my Extended Partition Table, there are 2 non-zero entries in
the Type column: 0B describing my D: partition (I corrected it to 0C) and 05,
which describes an Extended Partition and not the ExtendedX one, which should
have 0F entry, as in the Partition Table at sector 0. I don't understand this
either and I didn't correct it.


The 0x05 is correct. The continuation entries are always 0x05 even when
the extended partition starts with a 0x0F code.

I'm rather lost here because I don't know anything about Partition
Magic. Assume that originally your disk had two primary partitions and
then your extended one with two volumes. When you increased the size of
the second primary partition perhaps PM made space by moving the D:
volume to after the E: volume and changing the links in the extended
partition to suit. It would be easier to move 11GB than 30GB. As far
as I know each partition has to be contiguous but the volumes in the
extended partition can have spare areas between them and don't have to
be in ascending order by disk address.

It's a double-edged sword. PM is very clever in that it can resize
partitions but it might be producing layouts that confuse things like
Win98. It should be possible to determine your disk layout by using
something like Ranish Partition Manager but changing things to help
Win98 might cause problems when you later use PM to resize a partition
or select the other O/S.

Hopefully someone with ideas or knowledge of PM will chip in here. I'm
hesitant to suggest further changes due to the risk of wrecking your
setup.

It is possible to have Win98 and XP on a disk and select the one you
want by changing the boot flag using something like FDISK. This used to
be common in the old days and I still do it on some PCs.

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

 




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