Working with BING

I don't know what it means, for sure. I don't see anything in MEB's long
list of tools that use that word to describe their function(s). I presume it
includes a low-level wipe and perhaps flashing the ROM (firmware or
semi-hard-coded chip similar to BIOS chip) in the HDD. But it's not relevant
to this discussion *until* you verify that the drive has the same problems
when connected to a different controller, using a different cable, or better
yet, when inserted into a different machine altogether. If the drive is
still flaky when those underlying hardware have been determined not to be
the cause, then it might be time to play with other tools. The only
alternative left would be the trash can.

I'm again guessing that MEB is referring to one or more of the tools found
here.
http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/
I don't know them and can't recommend. But if the above tests (1st
paragraph)prove it's the drive that's faulty, and you still can't get the
Fujitsu tools to recognize the drive when properly detected by BIOS, I'd
recommend that you resign that drive to the toy bin, never to be used in
anything other than a disposable system. Hell, I would probably have done so
long ago. I just figure you're going through all this turmoil as an academic
exercise.

--

Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm

"ms" wrote in message ...
"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in

The purpose of *this* thread is to get Mike to start back at the
beginning with steps 1 and 2 (and a perhaps few others that do *not*
include additional scans of the HDD.) The variety of results from BING
and FDISK pretty much prove that if it *is* the drive, it's certainly
nothing a "reset" would fix (whatever that is.) If that were the case,
the results from BING partitioning would be repeatable. They're not.

Fortunately, Mike seems to have gotten the message. Let's see where
that takes him, OK?


Please explain what you meant by "reset"

I realize you said "(whatever that is.)" but I haven't seen that term
before. The only reset I know in W98SE is scanreg/restore, a great one.
But
the OS has to be installed to use it.

ms

Thought you were gone.

Whatever, I'm outta here. I only succumbed to this thread extension when I
thought I'd finally convinced Mike to start back at step one. IOW, I
considered the original thread dead and was willing to ferret out your own
duplicity.

If/When Mike has finished the gross diagnostics of his system without
finding anything else wrong, and stilol can't get th eFujitsu tool(s) to
properly recognize the drive after BIOS has done so, then my recomendation
is that he toss the drive. The fact that he is back already, without doing
any of those preliminary steps, indicates to me that he's not serious about
resolving the problem properly, but is instead looking for some magic
bullet. You do him a disservice by sugggesting that there even *is* such a
thing.

The drive started going bad *before* Mike ran any tools, Maxtor or
otherwise. If the tools contributed to furthering that drive failure, it was
almost certainly due to additional exercising of the drive under incorrect
parameters. Nothing you describe below supports your previous argument that
the Maxtor tool caused any of the symptoms Mike is currently seeing. Yes,
read/write might have destroyed data in the "user accessible" portions of
the drive if assumed parameters were wrong, but that's the extent of it, and
said tools weren't recommended until *after* the drive was already
scrambling data, which was perhaps because the BIOS parameters had been
inadvertently changed. Anything that the Maxtor tool might have done was
undone by repartitioning and/or rewriting the MBR under correct parameters.
Your own arguments, below, do nothing but support that thesis.

As usual, your debating technique stinks. Use lots of tech jargon to hide
the fact that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can read
and cite all the technical articles you want to, but it is emminently clear
that you don't understand much if any of the material, and you certainly
don't appear capable of following a logical set of diagnostic procedures to
their obvious conclusions.

--

Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
"MEB" meb@not wrote in message
...
Here ya go People.
Franc seems good at posting links and using formulas, but I think he fails
to grasp all the information he presents (or maybe he's really a sly one).
Though these related to Linux (from Franc), the principals are applied to
hard disks and in other OSs as well.

http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-6.html Disk geometry,
partitions
and overlap
http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-7.html Translation and Disk
Managers
http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-9.html CONSEQUENCES
http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-10.html DETAILS
http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-11.html Clipped Disks


So it would appear that the prior activity caused conflict on the disk
between the BIOS, the controller, and the disk coding.
The disk has been essentially software clipped.
The problem: the disk was not designed to be clipped in that fashion. For
information on what improper CHS settings cause, perhaps look to the hard
drive manufacturers site, or some of the old information concerning such.
Disks which are designed for "hardware" clipping, do so either with the
manufacturers setup tool or a jumper (or perhaps via the OS which then
controls the translation such as in XP and Linux). Disks may be "software"
clipped (partitioned or otherwise) as long as the disk is properly
accessed
via the bios AND the controller AND the tool. Though as is noted pursuant
the 137 gig aspect of 98 and attempts to use larger drives, the disk may
give or cause errors when doing so.
The Maxtor tool could do nothing but read the controller chip (around 10
gig) and BIOS for information, and attempt to use that upon a disk which
was
set improperly in the BIOS (clipped at around 8 gig). In doing so, it used
the access through the controller and BIOS presented as proper by the comp
(both conflicting each other), and apparently performed
"verify/read/write/verify" operations (standard disk verification
process).
Had it not been accessing the disk (using just verify/read/verify), it
would not have corrupted the Windows installation, it might, though, have
returned numerous errors due to the conflicting BIOS and controller.

So it seems you have determined that this thread will follow the others
with lengthy discussion. Does this clarify it or do you intend to debate
this as well while Mike is left in the lurch again.

--
MEB
http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
world"

"Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as
if
nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
Or to put it another way:
Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
_______________

"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
...
| When *you* can answer a single question put to you, *then* I'll consider
| your own complaints on that regard. Hell, you haven't even answered the
one
| I put to you in this thread.
|
| Quote:
| From what I read, MS used the Maxtor utility to "scan only" which I
| interpret to be Read Only. How in blazes would that damage the disk?
(Please
| keep your answer to a single short paragraph, perhaps with references
that
| back up your claim.)
|
| --
|
| Gary S. Terhune
| MS-MVP Shell/User
| http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
|
| "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| ...
| Then think more carefully about this, XP is one of the most carefully
| craft
| boot sector virus created, it just happens to be the OS, now how did
they
| accomplish their task?
|
| As for Jeff, let's see, he claimed and recommended ZAP and WIPE, then
| fdisk
| and format, those WERE DISCREDITED by others, then the manufactures
disk,
| DUH, and has STILL not stated what his supposed viewing tool is...
|
| Get real Gary and good bye.
|
| And remember you were told to reset the disk....
|
|
| --
| MEB
| http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
| BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
| world"
|
| "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
| Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business
as
| if
| nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
| Or to put it another way:
| Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
| but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
| _______________
|
| "Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
| ...
| | "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| | ...
| |
| | Again, good luck, I think I've about had my fill of this
newsgroup.
| |
| | Heh, didn't even see that line until now. Really, when you debate
the
| way
| | you do, is it any wonder you're going to get called on it? Every
time
| you've
| | been asked to provide a *single* reference to prove some claim of
yours,
| or
| | been asked to detail what tests *you* have performed, you are
curiously
| | silent and instead leap to some other argument that is equally
unsound.
| |
| | Don't worry, as you can probably tell, we've about had our fill of
you,
| too.
| |
| | --
| |
| | Gary S. Terhune
| | MS-MVP Shell/User
| | http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| | http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

I'm sorry Gary, remember when you state you have problems and your attitude
may not be as it appears, well I've been bucking a cold (or is it pneumonia)
for about three weeks now. My attitude hasn't been not very good to put it
mildly (can't breathe, not enough oxygen to the brain though that is no
excuse).

You are correct, he needs to do the hardware analysis FIRST and Report the
outcome.
There is no "magic bullet", though when you get it diagnosed hardwarewise,
there may be some software help available if it is a usable drive and normal
activity does not work.

Please help him, and I will fade to black (and nurse whatever this is)...
unless YOU ask, promise!

--
MEB
_______________

"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
...
| Thought you were gone.
|
| Whatever, I'm outta here. I only succumbed to this thread extension when I
| thought I'd finally convinced Mike to start back at step one. IOW, I
| considered the original thread dead and was willing to ferret out your own
| duplicity.
|
| If/When Mike has finished the gross diagnostics of his system without
| finding anything else wrong, and stilol can't get th eFujitsu tool(s) to
| properly recognize the drive after BIOS has done so, then my recomendation
| is that he toss the drive. The fact that he is back already, without doing
| any of those preliminary steps, indicates to me that he's not serious
about
| resolving the problem properly, but is instead looking for some magic
| bullet. You do him a disservice by sugggesting that there even *is* such a
| thing.
|
| The drive started going bad *before* Mike ran any tools, Maxtor or
| otherwise. If the tools contributed to furthering that drive failure, it
was
| almost certainly due to additional exercising of the drive under incorrect
| parameters. Nothing you describe below supports your previous argument
that
| the Maxtor tool caused any of the symptoms Mike is currently seeing. Yes,
| read/write might have destroyed data in the "user accessible" portions of
| the drive if assumed parameters were wrong, but that's the extent of it,
and
| said tools weren't recommended until *after* the drive was already
| scrambling data, which was perhaps because the BIOS parameters had been
| inadvertently changed. Anything that the Maxtor tool might have done was
| undone by repartitioning and/or rewriting the MBR under correct
parameters.
| Your own arguments, below, do nothing but support that thesis.
|
| As usual, your debating technique stinks. Use lots of tech jargon to hide
| the fact that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can
read
| and cite all the technical articles you want to, but it is emminently
clear
| that you don't understand much if any of the material, and you certainly
| don't appear capable of following a logical set of diagnostic procedures
to
| their obvious conclusions.
|
| --
|
| Gary S. Terhune
| MS-MVP Shell/User
| http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| ...
| Here ya go People.
| Franc seems good at posting links and using formulas, but I think he
fails
| to grasp all the information he presents (or maybe he's really a sly
one).
| Though these related to Linux (from Franc), the principals are applied
to
| hard disks and in other OSs as well.
|
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-6.html Disk geometry,
| partitions
| and overlap
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-7.html Translation and Disk
| Managers
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-9.html CONSEQUENCES
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-10.html DETAILS
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-11.html Clipped Disks
|
|
| So it would appear that the prior activity caused conflict on the disk
| between the BIOS, the controller, and the disk coding.
| The disk has been essentially software clipped.
| The problem: the disk was not designed to be clipped in that fashion.
For
| information on what improper CHS settings cause, perhaps look to the
hard
| drive manufacturers site, or some of the old information concerning
such.
| Disks which are designed for "hardware" clipping, do so either with the
| manufacturers setup tool or a jumper (or perhaps via the OS which then
| controls the translation such as in XP and Linux). Disks may be
"software"
| clipped (partitioned or otherwise) as long as the disk is properly
| accessed
| via the bios AND the controller AND the tool. Though as is noted
pursuant
| the 137 gig aspect of 98 and attempts to use larger drives, the disk may
| give or cause errors when doing so.
| The Maxtor tool could do nothing but read the controller chip (around 10
| gig) and BIOS for information, and attempt to use that upon a disk which
| was
| set improperly in the BIOS (clipped at around 8 gig). In doing so, it
used
| the access through the controller and BIOS presented as proper by the
comp
| (both conflicting each other), and apparently performed
| "verify/read/write/verify" operations (standard disk verification
| process).
| Had it not been accessing the disk (using just verify/read/verify), it
| would not have corrupted the Windows installation, it might, though,
have
| returned numerous errors due to the conflicting BIOS and controller.
|
| So it seems you have determined that this thread will follow the others
| with lengthy discussion. Does this clarify it or do you intend to debate
| this as well while Mike is left in the lurch again.
|
| --
| MEB
| http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
| BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
| world"
|
| "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
| Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as
| if
| nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
| Or to put it another way:
| Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
| but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
| _______________
|
| "Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
| ...
| | When *you* can answer a single question put to you, *then* I'll
consider
| | your own complaints on that regard. Hell, you haven't even answered
the
| one
| | I put to you in this thread.
| |
| | Quote:
| | From what I read, MS used the Maxtor utility to "scan only" which I
| | interpret to be Read Only. How in blazes would that damage the disk?
| (Please
| | keep your answer to a single short paragraph, perhaps with references
| that
| | back up your claim.)
| |
| | --
| |
| | Gary S. Terhune
| | MS-MVP Shell/User
| | http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| | http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| |
| | "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| | ...
| | Then think more carefully about this, XP is one of the most
carefully
| | craft
| | boot sector virus created, it just happens to be the OS, now how did
| they
| | accomplish their task?
| |
| | As for Jeff, let's see, he claimed and recommended ZAP and WIPE,
then
| | fdisk
| | and format, those WERE DISCREDITED by others, then the manufactures
| disk,
| | DUH, and has STILL not stated what his supposed viewing tool is...
| |
| | Get real Gary and good bye.
| |
| | And remember you were told to reset the disk....
| |
| |
| | --
| | MEB
| | http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
| | BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the
"real
| | world"
| |
| | "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
| | Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their
business
| as
| | if
| | nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
| | Or to put it another way:
| | Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
| | but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue
one.
| | _______________
| |
| | "Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
| | ...
| | | "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| | | ...
| | |
| | | Again, good luck, I think I've about had my fill of this
| newsgroup.
| | |
| | | Heh, didn't even see that line until now. Really, when you debate
| the
| | way
| | | you do, is it any wonder you're going to get called on it? Every
| time
| | you've
| | | been asked to provide a *single* reference to prove some claim of
| yours,
| | or
| | | been asked to detail what tests *you* have performed, you are
| curiously
| | | silent and instead leap to some other argument that is equally
| unsound.
| | |
| | | Don't worry, as you can probably tell, we've about had our fill of
| you,
| | too.
| | |
| | | --
| | |
| | | Gary S. Terhune
| | | MS-MVP Shell/User
| | | http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| | | http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| | |
| | |
| | |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

OK.

Peace Brother.

--

Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm

"MEB" meb@not wrote in message
...
I'm sorry Gary, remember when you state you have problems and your
attitude
may not be as it appears, well I've been bucking a cold (or is it
pneumonia)
for about three weeks now. My attitude hasn't been not very good to put it
mildly (can't breathe, not enough oxygen to the brain though that is no
excuse).

You are correct, he needs to do the hardware analysis FIRST and Report the
outcome.
There is no "magic bullet", though when you get it diagnosed hardwarewise,
there may be some software help available if it is a usable drive and
normal
activity does not work.

Please help him, and I will fade to black (and nurse whatever this is)...
unless YOU ask, promise!

--
MEB
_______________

"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
...
| Thought you were gone.
|
| Whatever, I'm outta here. I only succumbed to this thread extension when
I
| thought I'd finally convinced Mike to start back at step one. IOW, I
| considered the original thread dead and was willing to ferret out your
own
| duplicity.
|
| If/When Mike has finished the gross diagnostics of his system without
| finding anything else wrong, and stilol can't get th eFujitsu tool(s) to
| properly recognize the drive after BIOS has done so, then my
recomendation
| is that he toss the drive. The fact that he is back already, without
doing
| any of those preliminary steps, indicates to me that he's not serious
about
| resolving the problem properly, but is instead looking for some magic
| bullet. You do him a disservice by sugggesting that there even *is* such
a
| thing.
|
| The drive started going bad *before* Mike ran any tools, Maxtor or
| otherwise. If the tools contributed to furthering that drive failure, it
was
| almost certainly due to additional exercising of the drive under
incorrect
| parameters. Nothing you describe below supports your previous argument
that
| the Maxtor tool caused any of the symptoms Mike is currently seeing.
Yes,
| read/write might have destroyed data in the "user accessible" portions
of
| the drive if assumed parameters were wrong, but that's the extent of it,
and
| said tools weren't recommended until *after* the drive was already
| scrambling data, which was perhaps because the BIOS parameters had been
| inadvertently changed. Anything that the Maxtor tool might have done was
| undone by repartitioning and/or rewriting the MBR under correct
parameters.
| Your own arguments, below, do nothing but support that thesis.
|
| As usual, your debating technique stinks. Use lots of tech jargon to
hide
| the fact that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can
read
| and cite all the technical articles you want to, but it is emminently
clear
| that you don't understand much if any of the material, and you certainly
| don't appear capable of following a logical set of diagnostic procedures
to
| their obvious conclusions.
|
| --
|
| Gary S. Terhune
| MS-MVP Shell/User
| http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| ...
| Here ya go People.
| Franc seems good at posting links and using formulas, but I think he
fails
| to grasp all the information he presents (or maybe he's really a sly
one).
| Though these related to Linux (from Franc), the principals are applied
to
| hard disks and in other OSs as well.
|
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-6.html Disk geometry,
| partitions
| and overlap
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-7.html Translation and
Disk
| Managers
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-9.html CONSEQUENCES
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-10.html DETAILS
| http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/Large-Disk-11.html Clipped Disks
|
|
| So it would appear that the prior activity caused conflict on the disk
| between the BIOS, the controller, and the disk coding.
| The disk has been essentially software clipped.
| The problem: the disk was not designed to be clipped in that fashion.
For
| information on what improper CHS settings cause, perhaps look to the
hard
| drive manufacturers site, or some of the old information concerning
such.
| Disks which are designed for "hardware" clipping, do so either with
the
| manufacturers setup tool or a jumper (or perhaps via the OS which then
| controls the translation such as in XP and Linux). Disks may be
"software"
| clipped (partitioned or otherwise) as long as the disk is properly
| accessed
| via the bios AND the controller AND the tool. Though as is noted
pursuant
| the 137 gig aspect of 98 and attempts to use larger drives, the disk
may
| give or cause errors when doing so.
| The Maxtor tool could do nothing but read the controller chip (around
10
| gig) and BIOS for information, and attempt to use that upon a disk
which
| was
| set improperly in the BIOS (clipped at around 8 gig). In doing so, it
used
| the access through the controller and BIOS presented as proper by the
comp
| (both conflicting each other), and apparently performed
| "verify/read/write/verify" operations (standard disk verification
| process).
| Had it not been accessing the disk (using just verify/read/verify), it
| would not have corrupted the Windows installation, it might, though,
have
| returned numerous errors due to the conflicting BIOS and controller.
|
| So it seems you have determined that this thread will follow the
others
| with lengthy discussion. Does this clarify it or do you intend to
debate
| this as well while Mike is left in the lurch again.
|
| --
| MEB
| http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
| BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real
| world"
|
| "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
| Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business
as
| if
| nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
| Or to put it another way:
| Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
| but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one.
| _______________
|
| "Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
| ...
| | When *you* can answer a single question put to you, *then* I'll
consider
| | your own complaints on that regard. Hell, you haven't even answered
the
| one
| | I put to you in this thread.
| |
| | Quote:
| | From what I read, MS used the Maxtor utility to "scan only" which I
| | interpret to be Read Only. How in blazes would that damage the disk?
| (Please
| | keep your answer to a single short paragraph, perhaps with
references
| that
| | back up your claim.)
| |
| | --
| |
| | Gary S. Terhune
| | MS-MVP Shell/User
| | http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| | http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| |
| | "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| | ...
| | Then think more carefully about this, XP is one of the most
carefully
| | craft
| | boot sector virus created, it just happens to be the OS, now how
did
| they
| | accomplish their task?
| |
| | As for Jeff, let's see, he claimed and recommended ZAP and WIPE,
then
| | fdisk
| | and format, those WERE DISCREDITED by others, then the
manufactures
| disk,
| | DUH, and has STILL not stated what his supposed viewing tool is...
| |
| | Get real Gary and good bye.
| |
| | And remember you were told to reset the disk....
| |
| |
| | --
| | MEB
| | http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/
| | BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the
"real
| | world"
| |
| | "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth.
| | Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their
business
| as
| | if
| | nothing had happen." Winston Churchill
| | Or to put it another way:
| | Morpheus can offer you the two pills;
| | but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue
one.
| | _______________
| |
| | "Gary S. Terhune" wrote in message
| | ...
| | | "MEB" meb@not wrote in message
| | | ...
| | |
| | | Again, good luck, I think I've about had my fill of this
| newsgroup.
| | |
| | | Heh, didn't even see that line until now. Really, when you
debate
| the
| | way
| | | you do, is it any wonder you're going to get called on it? Every
| time
| | you've
| | | been asked to provide a *single* reference to prove some claim
of
| yours,
| | or
| | | been asked to detail what tests *you* have performed, you are
| curiously
| | | silent and instead leap to some other argument that is equally
| unsound.
| | |
| | | Don't worry, as you can probably tell, we've about had our fill
of
| you,
| | too.
| | |
| | | --
| | |
| | | Gary S. Terhune
| | | MS-MVP Shell/User
| | | http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
| | | http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm
| | |
| | |
| | |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
|

"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in
:

I don't know what it means, for sure. I don't see anything in MEB's
long list of tools that use that word to describe their function(s). I
presume it includes a low-level wipe and perhaps flashing the ROM
(firmware or semi-hard-coded chip similar to BIOS chip) in the HDD.
But it's not relevant to this discussion *until* you verify that the
drive has the same problems when connected to a different controller,
using a different cable, or better yet, when inserted into a different
machine altogether. If the drive is still flaky when those underlying
hardware have been determined not to be the cause, then it might be
time to play with other tools. The only alternative left would be the
trash can.

I'm again guessing that MEB is referring to one or more of the tools
found here.
http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/
I don't know them and can't recommend. But if the above tests (1st
paragraph)prove it's the drive that's faulty, and you still can't get
the Fujitsu tools to recognize the drive when properly detected by
BIOS, I'd recommend that you resign that drive to the toy bin, never
to be used in anything other than a disposable system. Hell, I would
probably have done so long ago. I just figure you're going through all
this turmoil as an academic exercise.


It has gotten to be a learning experience for me. And I got somewhat
used to fdisk and BING. Now to learn inside the box. I will keep records
of cable orientation, as I understand some connectors can be inserted
either way.

ms

Yes, look very carefully at what you're removing before you remove it. Make
sketches, even. Go slow and look all over for attachment points like screws
tab and notch affairs, whatever. Case designers are a weird lot. Understand
each structure before you dismantle it. Plan your attack thoroughly at each
step of the way.

Also remember to *always* have one hand holding the metal frame while you
work. No, you won't be able to do some things this way, but if you try to,
you'll do it often enough to minimize the threat of static electrical
discharge. I get real intimate with the hardware and tools I use,
practically fondling them, just to make sure. Even when using a wrist strap.

--

Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm
http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm

"ms" wrote in message ...
"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in
:

I don't know what it means, for sure. I don't see anything in MEB's
long list of tools that use that word to describe their function(s). I
presume it includes a low-level wipe and perhaps flashing the ROM
(firmware or semi-hard-coded chip similar to BIOS chip) in the HDD.
But it's not relevant to this discussion *until* you verify that the
drive has the same problems when connected to a different controller,
using a different cable, or better yet, when inserted into a different
machine altogether. If the drive is still flaky when those underlying
hardware have been determined not to be the cause, then it might be
time to play with other tools. The only alternative left would be the
trash can.

I'm again guessing that MEB is referring to one or more of the tools
found here.
http://hddguru.com/content/en/software/
I don't know them and can't recommend. But if the above tests (1st
paragraph)prove it's the drive that's faulty, and you still can't get
the Fujitsu tools to recognize the drive when properly detected by
BIOS, I'd recommend that you resign that drive to the toy bin, never
to be used in anything other than a disposable system. Hell, I would
probably have done so long ago. I just figure you're going through all
this turmoil as an academic exercise.


It has gotten to be a learning experience for me. And I got somewhat
used to fdisk and BING. Now to learn inside the box. I will keep records
of cable orientation, as I understand some connectors can be inserted
either way.

ms

"Gary S. Terhune" wrote in
:

You and others suggested the same and similar things up near the
beginning of that Everest thread (and in prior threads.) Why you
didn't INSIST on Mike following through on those suggestions before
launching into the almost incomprehensible thread that followed is
what boggles my mind.

My purpose in trying to limit this thread is to *focus* on the correct
procedures, not to have this thread end up like the other one.


A good thought, Gary.

In future, I will stay focused only on my computer issue, not try to
follow someone else's agenda. PCR and David A were very helpful, and
others, in my real purpose early to get the machine running in W98. The
other agenda was an exercise to find out why the hard drive did not show
it's full capacity. That was not important to me, it was not my issue. In
trying the procedures to do that, it reduced this machine to a doorstop,
and made long threads.

I will get into the box and work with the cables, thanks for the advice
in the other message. Whatever the result, as it may be a week or more,
this ng moves so fast that I will post a new thread to at least tell my
status.

One other question.

When I tried to install W98SE, Scandisk said it fixed errors, a clear
message, but the next time I tried install, Scandisk showed exactly the
same errors, "fixed" them a second time.

So it didn't really fix errors?

Comment?

ms

ms wrote:

I will get into the box and work with the cables

A bit of basic info...

1. Drives have two cables going into them...

(a) the data cable from the motherboard. It is wide and flat.
Terminal ends are generally "keyed" so they can only be inserted one
way. For several years, drives have use 80 wire data cables;
previously, they used 40 wire cables. The two look similar but the
traces (striations on the cable) of the wires on the 80 wire cable are
much finer. I mention this because you may have a 40 wire data cable
too being used for CD drives.

The data cable is attached to the motherboard. There are two other
terminals on the cable...one at the end and another about midway. If
your drive is jumpered as Master or CS (see below) use the end
terminal. If as Slave, use the middle. You would only set a drive as
slave if there were to be two drives on the same data cable.

There are two data terminals on the motherboard - one primary, the
other secondary. If you disconnect them note which is primary...it
would be the one to which the "C" drive is connected.

(b) the power supply cable. It is small, has (AFAIK) four wires
going into the plug which is shaped so it can only be inserted one
way.

2. The drives are normally secured in their bay within the case by
four small bolts, two per side. Once the bolts are removed, the drive
just slides out. Keep your fingers off the bottom of the drive. Some
cases have bays that can easily be removed (the whole thing, including
drive(s)). If you are just temporarily putting in a drive, it needn't
be bolted into its bay (nor need the one being usurped be
removed)...just set it wherever as long as the two cables can be
attached.

3. Drives have a jumper on the back. The "jumper" is just a small
piece of plastic about 1/8 wide X a bit more high and has two holes in
it which fit over pins on the back of the drive. There are various
possible jumper positions depending on how the drive is to be
seen/used...Master, Slave, CS (Cable Select) and - possibly - others.
You need to assure that the jumper is in the correct position.

There is no uniformity in jumper positions manufacturer to
manufacturer but there is usually an embossed diagram on the back of
the drive. You can also check positions at the drive manufacturer's
site.

The jumper can be fussy to remove/replace because of the small
size...tweezers help.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"dadiOH" wrote in news:eLH3Mpg7GHA.2288
@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl:

ms wrote:

I will get into the box and work with the cables

A bit of basic info...

1. Drives have two cables going into them...

(a) the data cable from the motherboard. It is wide and flat.
Terminal ends are generally "keyed" so they can only be inserted one
way. For several years, drives have use 80 wire data cables;
previously, they used 40 wire cables. The two look similar but the
traces (striations on the cable) of the wires on the 80 wire cable are
much finer. I mention this because you may have a 40 wire data cable
too being used for CD drives.

The data cable is attached to the motherboard. There are two other
terminals on the cable...one at the end and another about midway. If
your drive is jumpered as Master or CS (see below) use the end
terminal. If as Slave, use the middle. You would only set a drive as
slave if there were to be two drives on the same data cable.

There are two data terminals on the motherboard - one primary, the
other secondary. If you disconnect them note which is primary...it
would be the one to which the "C" drive is connected.

(b) the power supply cable. It is small, has (AFAIK) four wires
going into the plug which is shaped so it can only be inserted one
way.

2. The drives are normally secured in their bay within the case by
four small bolts, two per side. Once the bolts are removed, the drive
just slides out. Keep your fingers off the bottom of the drive. Some
cases have bays that can easily be removed (the whole thing, including
drive(s)). If you are just temporarily putting in a drive, it needn't
be bolted into its bay (nor need the one being usurped be
removed)...just set it wherever as long as the two cables can be
attached.

3. Drives have a jumper on the back. The "jumper" is just a small
piece of plastic about 1/8 wide X a bit more high and has two holes in
it which fit over pins on the back of the drive. There are various
possible jumper positions depending on how the drive is to be
seen/used...Master, Slave, CS (Cable Select) and - possibly - others.
You need to assure that the jumper is in the correct position.

There is no uniformity in jumper positions manufacturer to
manufacturer but there is usually an embossed diagram on the back of
the drive. You can also check positions at the drive manufacturer's
site.

The jumper can be fussy to remove/replace because of the small
size...tweezers help.


Thanks, dadiOH, that is the kind of detail that really helps while
working on it.

ms

When Scandisk runs during install, after formatting the disk anew, it's
going to find the same errors as it did during a previous installation
attempt, providing that Format is again used. Format/Scandisk marks the "bad
clusters" as unusable in the FATs. (FATs equate to the warehouse catalog
from my previous analogy.) When you reformat, the FATs are erased and
created anew, meaning that all the info on the previously marked bad
clusters is lost and has to be recreated, also.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS MVP Shell/User

"ms" wrote in message ...

One other question.

When I tried to install W98SE, Scandisk said it fixed errors, a clear
message, but the next time I tried install, Scandisk showed exactly the
same errors, "fixed" them a second time.

So it didn't really fix errors?

Comment?

ms