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New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 17th 17, 07:02 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
connector).


I like to draw pictures for people.

For a single IDE drive, it *always* goes on the end, like this.

Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Master
Cable_Select (if 80 wire, CS is allowed)

When you add a second drive, it can be like this. Or,
you can run CS on both drives, if you are using an
80 wire cable (with that twist in it). I didn't want to junk
up the diagram, by adding CS to the table for both drives.

Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Slave Master
Master with Slave (some brands have a
distinction on the jumpers)

Do *not* do this, as the end of the cable constitutes a
stub and causes excess reflections and corrupted data.

Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Oopsy
ULooz

Even in the best of circumstances, the signals on that
cable look horrible. The signals look more horrible
in that last case.

One of the things that SATA does, is banish those bad
design ideas... to the pit. With point to point SATA,
there are no more simulation nightmares for engineers
to look at. Someone (of course) can still make a SATA
cable out-of-spec, but the field reports seem to be
pretty good. Almost as if most of the rolls of raw cables
come from one cable plant, and that helps keep the
process "honest".

You should not bend a SATA cable until it kinks, as
that causes unpredictable results to your data. You could
get away with it, or not. Don't crush the excess SATA
cable and tightly wrap duct tape around it. Bad. If you
have too much SATA cable, buy a shorter one from the
store and try again.

HTH,
Paul
  #12  
Old December 18th 17, 08:55 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:01:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message ,
writes:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:57:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

[]
Yep, it looks like the old drive was set to SLAVE. However, I just
changed the new one to CS and copied a bunch of stuff to it from my
first drive. Then I deleted some stuff and copied a whole bunch of small
clipart pics to it, and then deleted some of them, and after that I
copied a huge ISO file to it, which is almost 1gb in size.

After all of that, I defragged that drive with no problem. It appears
that it needs to be set to CS. Maybe that was the whole problem. I'll
copy more stuff to it and delete other stuff and see if it keeps working
properly now. So far, so good!


I hesitate to ask, but when you say "the old drive" above, do you mean
the CD drive that failed years ago, or do you mean the HD-that-was-G/H/I
whose failure started this whole saga? If the latter, I wonder if
setting that to CS might have cured the original problem )-:!

There is no CD drive involved in any of this. In fact the CD drive in
this computer died years ago. I really dont have any need for one on my
Win98 machine. I have the Win98 install files right on the HDD. I dont
play games or anything that needs a CD.

I do have a CD player on my XP machine, but rarely use it. But I would
need it to reinstall XP, and once and awhile I copy a music CD and turn
it into MP3 songs for my MP3 player. If I want to listen to CDs, I have
a regular CD player on my stereo.

Anyhow, I was referring to my old 2nd drive / Slave (G: H: I.


I ma tempted to try the actual Master and Slave settings with the
jumpers and see if that works. I dont know if one way is better than the
other, or not? Does anyone know which jumper setting is the best?


Does anyone know whether using master/slave jumpering with a cable on
which CS works might cause problems?

I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older

[]
If the cable truly has the same connections on all three connectors,
then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
had a twist in the cable.

Yep, floppy cables do have a twist, but not these IDE Hard drive cables.
So how that CS works is beyond my comprehension. I do know that for


Maybe there's an internal break in one line - so the cable from the mobo
to the first connector is 80 way, but between them is 79 or 78 way? (I
take it there's nothing obvious like one of the connectors having one of
its holes blanked.)


This is a brand new cable. Of course anything can be defective.

Ah, I've just looked:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Cable_select says it is done
using pin 28 - often just by omitting the contact from the middle
(slave, grey) connector, so you'd have to look extremely hard to see it!
It also says line 28 is only used so the drives know which they are, not
for control by the mobo, so if the drives are jumpered as master and
slave anyway, it is ignored (and that doesn't have to be master at the
end). So you can try it if you want. When the controller says "master
drive, please respond", both drives receive the command, but only one of
them responds - either because it is jumpered as master, or because both
are jumpered as CS and one of them knows it is master. (Apparently also
"drive 0" and "drive 1" - apparently "master" and "slave" don't actually
appear in the specification.) Which does suggest that having one drive
"hard jumpered" and the other as CS _could_ cause problems, depending on
position on the cable.


Ok, that explains it....

awhile I had the Master drive on the first connector and Slave on the
last connector. THAT IS WRONG, but it was that way for a year or more
and worked fine. Maybe it dont much matter which cable comes first, but
according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
drive (which seems backwards).

No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
connector).


I better understand this now. I know I have the cable right now, and
since I changed that jumper to CS, it looks like everything works fine
now. (At least so far). I have copied and deleted files and defragged
and scandisked, and ran Norton Dick Doctor. I even ran scandisk from
Dos. Everything checks out ok.

I sort of am wondering if the problem on my old slave drive may have
been caused by the jumpers being incorrectly set, but I had them drives
that way for at least 2 years. I'd think that would have shown up a lot
sooner.


  #13  
Old December 18th 17, 09:08 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:02:20 -0500, Paul wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
connector).


I like to draw pictures for people.

For a single IDE drive, it *always* goes on the end, like this.

Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Master
Cable_Select (if 80 wire, CS is allowed)

When you add a second drive, it can be like this. Or,
you can run CS on both drives, if you are using an
80 wire cable (with that twist in it). I didn't want to junk
up the diagram, by adding CS to the table for both drives.

Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Slave Master
Master with Slave (some brands have a
distinction on the jumpers)

Do *not* do this, as the end of the cable constitutes a
stub and causes excess reflections and corrupted data.

Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Oopsy
ULooz

Even in the best of circumstances, the signals on that
cable look horrible. The signals look more horrible
in that last case.

One of the things that SATA does, is banish those bad
design ideas... to the pit. With point to point SATA,
there are no more simulation nightmares for engineers
to look at. Someone (of course) can still make a SATA
cable out-of-spec, but the field reports seem to be
pretty good. Almost as if most of the rolls of raw cables
come from one cable plant, and that helps keep the
process "honest".

You should not bend a SATA cable until it kinks, as
that causes unpredictable results to your data. You could
get away with it, or not. Don't crush the excess SATA
cable and tightly wrap duct tape around it. Bad. If you
have too much SATA cable, buy a shorter one from the
store and try again.

HTH,
Paul


I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
has so few wires compared to the IDE cables, and even more puzzling why
the power connectors have all those pins, when there is still only 5V
12V and a copule grounds needed (4 wires). Why do they have all them
pins? Why didnt they just use the common 4 pin connecters they have used
for years. All that did is make power supplies more complicated and the
need to buy adapters to use older power supplies.

That "dd" thing sounds too much like Linux command line **** to me. I
dont touch that ****....

I'd rather run scandisk, chkdsk, or Norton Disk Doctor (NDD).
Ndd runs faster than scandisk, so I normally run that. Scandisk took 13
hours to scan a 40gb drive, Ndd takes 4 or 5 hours to do the same.

I do question how much drives are abused by running all this stuff.
Like, how much life is taken away from drives by beating the crap out of
them with these sector by sector tests? This is not like normal use,
this is extreme abuse. Some of those tests are made so they can be run
10x or even more. Not only would that make my computer unusable for
several days, but probably eliminates 50% of the drive's lifespan.


  #14  
Old December 18th 17, 10:15 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

wrote:

I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
has so few wires compared to the IDE cables, and even more puzzling why
the power connectors have all those pins, when there is still only 5V
12V and a copule grounds needed (4 wires). Why do they have all them
pins? Why didnt they just use the common 4 pin connecters they have used
for years. All that did is make power supplies more complicated and the
need to buy adapters to use older power supplies.


The SATA 7 pin data uses TX+,TX-,RX+,RX-,
and those are differential serial connections.

The data travels serially, a bit at a time, like a modem.
Only it happens at 6Gbit/sec, which is "faster than your microwave oven".
It's a signal at microwave frequencies.

So that's how they squeezed down the data cable, by going serial.

USB uses this approach too. USB3 uses TX+,TX-,RX+,RX- .

This document is 3.6MB and it has a picture of what the
SATA data signal looks like, at 6Gbit/sec. And it isn't
even an eye diagram picture - the picture is standalone
ones and zeros. Page 4 has the picture.

http://download.tek.com/datasheet/4HW_19377_15_0.pdf

*******

The SATA connector is designed for SATA backplanes.
It's usage in desktop computers is an afterthought.
The hard drive was supposed to slide into a hole
in a chassis, and the back of the drive mates
with a backplane connector that "sticks out"
of the backplane PCB board. And via hotswap, on
a server you could add or remove drives while
the server remained powered and running.

*******

The 15 pin power is 5 groups of 3 pins each.
A pin carries 1 ampere of current. Three pins
carry 3 amps. And 3 amps is just enough for the
+12V source, to run the hard drive motor. At
one time, some hard drives would draw 3 amps for
the first ten seconds, until the spindle was up
to speed.

So the contact count for power, was made generous
enough to run existing hard drives.

Actual current flow measurements, show drives
now being "all over the place" with regard to
the level of current flow at startup. I don't
think I found any samples I tested, drawing the
whole 3 amps.

The groups on the power connector are

3.3V, 5V, 12V, GND, GND

The expectation is, a design might use two of
three power sources, so only two ground groups
are needed. A conventional disk drive uses

5V, 12V, GND, GND

and so there are just enough grounds to match
the current flow level on the supply pins.

Paul
  #15  
Old December 19th 17, 01:15 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
philo
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 1,318
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

On 12/17/2017 12:47 PM, Paul wrote:
wrote:

What is the point of cleaning it? It should be blank, and if not, this
is not a secret government operation containing all the codes to launch
the nukes worldwide.... About the only controversial or secret stuff
might be a few pics of cows with their tits showing, and a pic of God
smoking some whacky weed....
Besides that, I've probably re-formatted every partition at least 4
times now, because of these problems. If that didn't clean the drives,
what will....


Keep an open mind.

This is a hardware test.

It tests that the drive is write-able from end to end
and is "data safe" when you put real data on it.

If the size reported by the run, does not conform to
your expectations, you figure out why.

If the test case never finishes, that suggests the
disk has bad patches or something.

You can also set the tests to do reads instead.
This test would stop early, when it encounters even
one CRC error. That would look like...

dd if=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 of=NUL bs=221184

What that command would do, is read to the end of Disk2.
And spit out a report of how many chunks it could read.
Multiplying the chunk count by the 221184 number, should
equal the drive size in bytes. On WinXP, you can run
"perfmon.msc" and add a "disk" "write bytes" counter
to the graph, and monitor the transfer rate as the
command runs. A lot of downward spikes indicates a
not very healthy "new" disk.

You can get much the same testing from the WDC or
Seagate test utilities. But I like the added bonus
of *proving* the disk works right up to the end of it.

The Windows "NUL" destination is the equivalent of
/dev/null on Linux and the data goes into the bit bucket.

So these are hardware-guy tests, to be done *before*
you use the disk for real data.

The amount of testing you do, is a function of how
the drive has been abused. Was it in a UPS box with
no Styrofoam peanuts ? Was the drive packaged in a
double plastic "SeaShell" packaging (I picked up
some retail drives from Best Buy packaged that way) ?
If the drive has accepted a rough ride on its way
to see you, then you test it.

The drives I get now, I pick up at the computer store.
They're held in a rack, with no soft packaging at all.
They come in an antistatic bag. There is no way to know
what kind of life they've had in that rack. The company
involved, knows nothing about handling hard drives :-)
Even the sales counter is rock-hard Formica, and they
don't even have a rubber pad to cushion product the sales
associates plunk onto the counter.

The reason I worry about this sort of stuff, is I was
actually sent on a plane trip from work, to root cause
why we had excessive disk failures at a certain site
in the US. When I saw what they were doing, my
jaw dropped :-) And I haven't been the same since :-)
It's not only the UPS driver who has evil in his heart.

** Paul





I would absolutely run a RAM test, may be nothing to do with the drive
  #16  
Old December 19th 17, 02:15 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

philo wrote:
On 12/17/2017 12:47 PM, Paul wrote:
wrote:

What is the point of cleaning it? It should be blank, and if not, this
is not a secret government operation containing all the codes to launch
the nukes worldwide.... About the only controversial or secret stuff
might be a few pics of cows with their tits showing, and a pic of God
smoking some whacky weed....
Besides that, I've probably re-formatted every partition at least 4
times now, because of these problems. If that didn't clean the drives,
what will....


Keep an open mind.

This is a hardware test.

It tests that the drive is write-able from end to end
and is "data safe" when you put real data on it.

If the size reported by the run, does not conform to
your expectations, you figure out why.

If the test case never finishes, that suggests the
disk has bad patches or something.

You can also set the tests to do reads instead.
This test would stop early, when it encounters even
one CRC error. That would look like...

dd if=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 of=NUL bs=221184

What that command would do, is read to the end of Disk2.
And spit out a report of how many chunks it could read.
Multiplying the chunk count by the 221184 number, should
equal the drive size in bytes. On WinXP, you can run
"perfmon.msc" and add a "disk" "write bytes" counter
to the graph, and monitor the transfer rate as the
command runs. A lot of downward spikes indicates a
not very healthy "new" disk.

You can get much the same testing from the WDC or
Seagate test utilities. But I like the added bonus
of *proving* the disk works right up to the end of it.

The Windows "NUL" destination is the equivalent of
/dev/null on Linux and the data goes into the bit bucket.

So these are hardware-guy tests, to be done *before*
you use the disk for real data.

The amount of testing you do, is a function of how
the drive has been abused. Was it in a UPS box with
no Styrofoam peanuts ? Was the drive packaged in a
double plastic "SeaShell" packaging (I picked up
some retail drives from Best Buy packaged that way) ?
If the drive has accepted a rough ride on its way
to see you, then you test it.

The drives I get now, I pick up at the computer store.
They're held in a rack, with no soft packaging at all.
They come in an antistatic bag. There is no way to know
what kind of life they've had in that rack. The company
involved, knows nothing about handling hard drives :-)
Even the sales counter is rock-hard Formica, and they
don't even have a rubber pad to cushion product the sales
associates plunk onto the counter.

The reason I worry about this sort of stuff, is I was
actually sent on a plane trip from work, to root cause
why we had excessive disk failures at a certain site
in the US. When I saw what they were doing, my
jaw dropped :-) And I haven't been the same since :-)
It's not only the UPS driver who has evil in his heart.

Paul





I would absolutely run a RAM test, may be nothing to do with the drive


Any PC you pull from storage, should have some
basic health tests done on it. There's no harm in trying
that. I did that on my new machine only a couple days
ago... just in case.

Paul
  #17  
Old December 19th 17, 07:23 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 21:15:58 -0500, Paul wrote:

The reason I worry about this sort of stuff, is I was
actually sent on a plane trip from work, to root cause
why we had excessive disk failures at a certain site
in the US. When I saw what they were doing, my
jaw dropped :-) And I haven't been the same since :-)
It's not only the UPS driver who has evil in his heart.

Paul





I would absolutely run a RAM test, may be nothing to do with the drive


Any PC you pull from storage, should have some
basic health tests done on it. There's no harm in trying
that. I did that on my new machine only a couple days
ago... just in case.

Paul

How do you test RAM?

Hopefully its a Windows program, not linux....

  #18  
Old December 19th 17, 07:40 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ammammata
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

Il giorno Sat 16 Dec 2017 08:26:40p, ** ha inviato su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:

This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001


an almost seventeen-years-old computer is like a Ford Model T
you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it

imho

--
/-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ T /-\
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- - -=-
http://www.bb2002.it

............ [ al lavoro ] ...........
  #19  
Old December 19th 17, 11:12 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:40:50 +0000 (UTC), Ammammata
wrote:


This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001


an almost seventeen-years-old computer is like a Ford Model T
you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it

imho


Bull****. Unless it's dead, it works just fine, and I have used it
almost daily for the past 17 years. I have radios and power tools from
the 1950s and 60s that still work fine too. Then again, I'm almost 70
years old, and I still work pretty well too.

You sound like one of todays spoiled rotten youth who cant stand to have
anything more than 2 years old, and waste a lot of your parents hard
earnings on expensive toys, because your old toy (which is one year old)
no longer gives you any thrills). I cant wait to see all you spoiled
youth crash when the economy goes to ****. Maybe you'll learn the value
of a dollar that YOU had to earn yourself, and you'll have to wear an
old coat you've had for 4 years and be forced to use a 5 year old
cellphone or computer, or do without them completely. Your generation
makes me want to puke. Not only are you spoiled so rotten that you
stink, but you are the worst polluters to ever inhabit this earth, with
all the waste you create (because it's old).


  #20  
Old December 19th 17, 12:43 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.gen_discussion,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN

wrote:
On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 21:15:58 -0500, Paul wrote:

The reason I worry about this sort of stuff, is I was
actually sent on a plane trip from work, to root cause
why we had excessive disk failures at a certain site
in the US. When I saw what they were doing, my
jaw dropped :-) And I haven't been the same since :-)
It's not only the UPS driver who has evil in his heart.

Paul



I would absolutely run a RAM test, may be nothing to do with the drive

Any PC you pull from storage, should have some
basic health tests done on it. There's no harm in trying
that. I did that on my new machine only a couple days
ago... just in case.

Paul

How do you test RAM?

Hopefully its a Windows program, not linux....


Windows does have a memory diagnostic.

On WinXP, you get a copy by downloading it.

On more modern Windows OSes, it's included on C: (but you
have to figure out where it's located of course).

https://web.archive.org/web/20070102...en/windiag.asp

(640KB - shirely a joke)
https://web.archive.org/web/20070102.../en/mtinst.exe

The virustotal scan suggests that might be installing
itself as a multiboot. I need to know this, to know whether
it's a good idea for me to click this or not :-) What it
might be doing, is adding an item to the boot menu, for a
boot-time memory test.

https://www.virustotal.com/#/file/ce...0ffbe/behavior

In any case, that's one way to do it. Try it out,
tell me what happened or something :-)

I *have* run the Windows memory tester on a later Windows,
but I cannot recollect right now what menu I saw it in. It's
possible it was testing while Windows was running, and it didn't
test every memory location (the 300MB of locations Windows is using).

*******

This one, you combine it with a blank floppy.

It tests every memory location, except "BIOS reserved" locations
totaling around 1MB or so. If it were to write to BIOS locations,
some BIOS call might crash later. There is actually a table the BIOS
presents, of locations "you must not touch".

http://www.memtest.org

The downloads are half way down that web page.

For example, the floppy in front of me, is this one. 274,506 bytes.

http://www.memtest.org/download/4.10....10.floppy.zip

The contents of the ZIP a

memtestp.bin
install64.bat
install.bat ---- insert blank floppy, run this one in Command Prompt
README.txt
dd.exe
rawrite.exe

What the file set does, is a sector-by-sector transfer of "memtestp.bin"
to the sectors of the floppy. When finished, if you try to list the
floppy "there is nothing on it". There is no file system on the floppy.

You insert the floppy later if you want and boot from it.

Once the 640x480 screen appears, the floppy contents are
stored in memory, so you can pop the floppy out and put it
away somewhere.

The "memtestp.bin" is like an OS and when the BIOS hands
off control, that program runs the whole machine and does
the memory test. After it has completed one pass, press
the esc key to exit and boot the OS again. You can stop
the test at any time by pressing that key.

If it finds errors, they're printed in the middle of the
screen. If there are too many errors, the error list will scroll.
When I had one completely dead memory chip, it scrolled... a lot.

Paul
 




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