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Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 9th 04, 07:38 PM
*Vanguard*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

Windows ME
Abit NF7-S v2 motherboard (built-in USB), nForce2 400 chipset
Drives:
IDE0 master = WD 120GB ATA-133 IDE hard disk
IDE1 master = CD-RW/DVD-ROM IDE combo drive

Problem:
The only drive designator that should get assigned is C: because it is
the FAT32 primary partition used to boot Windows ME. Other partitions
are formatted as NTFS. There should be no D: drive but it is showing up
(as zero bytes in size).

I have both Windows XP and Windows ME installed but in separate primary
partitions. My hard drive is partitioned as follows:

- 1st partition = primary
C: using NTFS for Windows XP system drive
Hidden to Windows ME (because of NTFS)
- 2nd partition = primary
C: using FAT32 for Windows ME
Hidden to Windows XP (no drive designator assigned)
- 3rd partition = extended with logical drive
D: using NTFS for Windows XP data drive
Hidden to Windows ME (because of NTFS)

The 2nd partition is seen by Windows XP but has *not* been assigned a
drive letter (it did originally but I used diskmgmt.msc to remove the
drive designator from it) since I do not want it accessed when booting
up using Windows XP. The Windows ME partition is used for playing games
that I just can't get running at all or running well under an NT-based
version of Windows.

I don't want to use the same partition for both installs and risk one OS
polluting the other (as with Microsoft's dual-boot within the same
partition), so I have them in separate primary partitions so Windows ME
cannot see the other drives (because they are NTFS formatted) and
Windows XP [user] cannot see the FAT32 partition for Windows ME because
no drive letter is assigned to it (i.e., it is hidden). I was going to
use BootMagic (included with PartitionMagic) but it reports that it
cannot find its home partition. It requires a non-NTFS partition to
install the rest of its bootstrap program so it is on the FAT32
partition with Windows ME. Windows ME boots just fine so I don't know
what is BootMagic's problem (and am still waiting for a response from
Symantec since they gobbled up Powerquest). If I can't get BootMagic to
work, I'll just edit boot.ini to use the dual-boot function of NTLDR
from Windows XP to make my OS selection.

The problem:

When I boot into Windows ME (by making its primary partition the active
one), it should NOT be able to see the first primary partition nor the
logical drive in the extended partition because both are formatted using
NTFS. This was how Windows ME first behaved when it was installed (I
had saved the MBR after the partitioning but before installing Windows
ME so I could recover the original bootstrap code in the MBR that
Windows ME would screw up, and then restored it after the Windows ME
install). At first, all I had for hard drives was C: which was the
FAT32 partition.

However, I kept getting "PCI Universal Serial Bus" device not found and
Windows ME wanted me to install a driver for it. After installing
Windows ME, I installed the nForce platform driver package (this
motherboard uses the nForce2 400 chipset). I thought it would include
USB support but found out it does not. So I downloaded the Orangeware
USB driver from Abit's web site, installed it (and then reinstalled the
nVidia nForce driver package just to be sure nVidia's latest version
drivers were getting used) and this nuisancesome "device found" dialog
disappeared on bootup of Windows ME. After this is when I got the
zero-byte D: drive showing up.

In Explorer, I see C: which is the FAT32 partition (second primary
partition) used to boot Windows ME. The CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive is assigned
J:. In Explorer, I also see a D: drive but it reports no properties and
is zero bytes in size. When I look in Device Manager, only one hard
drive is listed (which is correct since there is only one physical hard
disk) but under its properties it says it is being assigned a D: drive
designator (I would think it should say C. When I boot into Windows
ME, the FAT32 partition is getting assigned a C: designator.

So where is this D: designator getting assigned, and why is it getting
assigned? C: is obviously showing up because that's the boot partition
for Windows ME (which is loading okay) and shows up in Explorer. But D:
is the drive designator shown in Device Manager for the physical hard
disk and D: is showing up in Explorer but D: should not appear anywhere
when booting under Windows ME.

TIA

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  #2  
Old June 9th 04, 08:02 PM
Mike M
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

Rather than using BootMagic have a look at BootItNG
(http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/). One rather nice feature is that it can
be installed onto its own micro partition - basically the otherwise unused
part of the first cylinder. The advantage of this being that you aren't then
tied to having BootMagic installed on one of your system partitions.

Returning to your problem. In all honesty I don't know why you are seeing
this zero byte drive D: but the clue has to be that the Device Manager is
reporting just the single drive and assigning it as D: rather than the
expected C:. What happens if you boot into Safe Mode delete the hard drive
and all controllers and anything else connected to the controllers. On
rebooting back into Normal Mode where the devices will be redetected do you
still see the same drive letter assignments?
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP



*Vanguard*
wrote:

Windows ME
Abit NF7-S v2 motherboard (built-in USB), nForce2 400 chipset
Drives:
IDE0 master = WD 120GB ATA-133 IDE hard disk
IDE1 master = CD-RW/DVD-ROM IDE combo drive

Problem:
The only drive designator that should get assigned is C: because it is
the FAT32 primary partition used to boot Windows ME. Other partitions
are formatted as NTFS. There should be no D: drive but it is showing up
(as zero bytes in size).

I have both Windows XP and Windows ME installed but in separate primary
partitions. My hard drive is partitioned as follows:

- 1st partition = primary
C: using NTFS for Windows XP system drive
Hidden to Windows ME (because of NTFS)
- 2nd partition = primary
C: using FAT32 for Windows ME
Hidden to Windows XP (no drive designator assigned)
- 3rd partition = extended with logical drive
D: using NTFS for Windows XP data drive
Hidden to Windows ME (because of NTFS)

The 2nd partition is seen by Windows XP but has *not* been assigned a
drive letter (it did originally but I used diskmgmt.msc to remove the
drive designator from it) since I do not want it accessed when booting
up using Windows XP. The Windows ME partition is used for playing games
that I just can't get running at all or running well under an NT-based
version of Windows.

I don't want to use the same partition for both installs and risk one OS
polluting the other (as with Microsoft's dual-boot within the same
partition), so I have them in separate primary partitions so Windows ME
cannot see the other drives (because they are NTFS formatted) and
Windows XP [user] cannot see the FAT32 partition for Windows ME because
no drive letter is assigned to it (i.e., it is hidden). I was going to
use BootMagic (included with PartitionMagic) but it reports that it
cannot find its home partition. It requires a non-NTFS partition to
install the rest of its bootstrap program so it is on the FAT32
partition with Windows ME. Windows ME boots just fine so I don't know
what is BootMagic's problem (and am still waiting for a response from
Symantec since they gobbled up Powerquest). If I can't get BootMagic to
work, I'll just edit boot.ini to use the dual-boot function of NTLDR
from Windows XP to make my OS selection.

The problem:

When I boot into Windows ME (by making its primary partition the active
one), it should NOT be able to see the first primary partition nor the
logical drive in the extended partition because both are formatted using
NTFS. This was how Windows ME first behaved when it was installed (I
had saved the MBR after the partitioning but before installing Windows
ME so I could recover the original bootstrap code in the MBR that
Windows ME would screw up, and then restored it after the Windows ME
install). At first, all I had for hard drives was C: which was the
FAT32 partition.

However, I kept getting "PCI Universal Serial Bus" device not found and
Windows ME wanted me to install a driver for it. After installing
Windows ME, I installed the nForce platform driver package (this
motherboard uses the nForce2 400 chipset). I thought it would include
USB support but found out it does not. So I downloaded the Orangeware
USB driver from Abit's web site, installed it (and then reinstalled the
nVidia nForce driver package just to be sure nVidia's latest version
drivers were getting used) and this nuisancesome "device found" dialog
disappeared on bootup of Windows ME. After this is when I got the
zero-byte D: drive showing up.

In Explorer, I see C: which is the FAT32 partition (second primary
partition) used to boot Windows ME. The CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive is assigned
J:. In Explorer, I also see a D: drive but it reports no properties and
is zero bytes in size. When I look in Device Manager, only one hard
drive is listed (which is correct since there is only one physical hard
disk) but under its properties it says it is being assigned a D: drive
designator (I would think it should say C. When I boot into Windows
ME, the FAT32 partition is getting assigned a C: designator.

So where is this D: designator getting assigned, and why is it getting
assigned? C: is obviously showing up because that's the boot partition
for Windows ME (which is loading okay) and shows up in Explorer. But D:
is the drive designator shown in Device Manager for the physical hard
disk and D: is showing up in Explorer but D: should not appear anywhere
when booting under Windows ME.

TIA



  #3  
Old June 11th 04, 03:02 PM
*Vanguard*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

Mike M said in :

Sorry to get back after a few days but it's been a lot of work to
recover my system.

Rather than using BootMagic have a look at BootItNG
(http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/). One rather nice feature is that
it can be installed onto its own micro partition - basically the
otherwise unused part of the first cylinder. The advantage of this
being that you aren't then tied to having BootMagic installed on one
of your system partitions.


I wouldn't be without PartitionMagic. It includes BootMagic. I would
have to spend another $35 to get Bootit NG. If I need to to multiboot
then there will be a FAT32 partition available to install BootMagic
since the only time I need to multiboot is between a 95-based version of
Windows, like Windows ME, and an NT-based version of Windows, like
Windows XP. If I ever have need of multiple NT-based Windows installed,
like Windows 2000 and Windows XP, but without any instances of 95-based
Windows, a minimally sized DOS partition for BootMagic would work.

Returning to your problem. In all honesty I don't know why you are
seeing this zero byte drive D: but the clue has to be that the Device
Manager is reporting just the single drive and assigning it as D:
rather than the expected C:. What happens if you boot into Safe Mode
delete the hard drive and all controllers and anything else connected
to the controllers. On rebooting back into Normal Mode where the
devices will be redetected do you still see the same drive letter
assignments?


Turns out it was a partition recovery that didn't quite work right. I
had saved the MBR (sector 0) in preparation to installing Windows ME
since I knew Windows ME would screw up the MBR (see
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=293089). However, I think that only
occurs if you use Microsoft's dual-boot in which you install Windows
9x/ME into the same partition as where is the boot sector for Windows
2000/XP. I created a new primary partition for Windows ME and would use
BootMagic to swap between Windows XP and Windows ME. I had to steal
away 10GB from the primary partition for Windows XP to make room for a
primary partition for Windows ME. I completed the install of Windows ME
but figured it would replace the bootstrap code in the MBR, so I
restored the MBR. That was my mistake!

I had saved a copy of the MBR before I had resized the primary partition
to make room for another one. I forgot to also save a copy of the MBR
*after* I had resized and created a new partition. So my restore of the
MBR included the prior copy of the partition table which obviously
didn't include changes made for the resize and new partition. DOH! To
recover, I resized the primary partition and recreated the 2nd primary
partition just like before. Windows ME booted just fine. This should
work because deleting a partition does nothing to erase the sectors used
by that partition - except I forgot the boot sector gets wiped. Why
Windows ME would start with a corrupted boot sector seems strange indeed
but it did start and work okay. The partition type was correct
([hidden] FAT32) but way too many of its values were screwy. I used
PTEDIT (on the PartitionMagic rescue diskettes) and PTEDIT32 (included
in the hard drive install of PartitionMagic) to look at the partition
table. That looked okay. It has an option to let you review the values
in the boot sector for each primary partition. The Windows XP partition
looked okay. However, the boot sector for the Windows ME partition had
some really odd values, like eight double-dotted "o" characters (has 2
dots above the "o") for the partition OEM name, a garbled mess for the
volume ID, 256 copies of the FAT (when there are only 2), and lots of
other values that didn't make sense. This was why the zero-byte D:
drive was showing up. This is why running DiskImage 2002 from a
bootable floppy on this partition ended up with a zero-sized image.
This is why AIDA32 reported this partition as unformatted although
Windows ME was booting and applications would run.

I couldn't use DriveImage 2002 to save a disk image. It would save a
zero-sized image which was useless. I created a disaster recovery tape
backup using Backup Exec (from Veritas who sold it to Stomp and is now
called Backup MyPC) but it is an old version 4 which apparently has
version 1.0 of their DR (disaster recovery) wizard which screws up in
creating the bootable floppies but the tape backup was okay - sort of.
I deleted the partition, recreated it, and this time formatted it as
FAT32 before using it to ensure the partition table was accurate and to
get a valid boot sector. I then did a basic install of Windows ME,
installed the backup software, and tried to do a restore from the backup
tape. After 3 hours, it had restored only 363 files out of over 14,000
of them. At that rate, it would take 5 days to do the restore. Why it
was so slow is unknown other than it appeared to be looking for a file
at a time and making the tape move all over to find the file rather than
just restore them in whatever order they appeared on the tape. It only
takes an full evening to install Windows ME, all applications and games,
do the updates, and tweak it.

If I had remembered to do an MBR backup *after* resizing the primary
partition and creating another one, none of this work would've been
needed. Also, it appears I could've just used the Windows XP install CD
to use Repair to go into Recovery Console mode to use FIXMBR to restore
the bootstrap program in the MBR after installing Windows ME. Windows
9x/ME screws up the boot sector for Windows NT/2000/XP but only if you
use Microsoft's dual-boot where you install both within the same
partition.



  #4  
Old June 11th 04, 06:03 PM
Rick T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

*Vanguard* wrote:

Windows
9x/ME screws up the boot sector for Windows NT/2000/XP but only if you
use Microsoft's dual-boot where you install both within the same
partition.



I was under the impression (and have found from past experience) that
any type of Windows installation stomps all over the MBR.


Rick
  #5  
Old June 11th 04, 06:37 PM
Shane
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager


"Rick T" wrote in message
...
*Vanguard* wrote:

Windows
9x/ME screws up the boot sector for Windows NT/2000/XP but only if you
use Microsoft's dual-boot where you install both within the same
partition.



I was under the impression (and have found from past experience) that
any type of Windows installation stomps all over the MBR.


I retro-fitted MS-DOS 7.10 to XP (by doing SYS C: with a 98se boot disk)
without having to touch the MBR. Shortly after that, I installed ME to XP by
running Setup, also without needing to touch the MBR afterwards. Of course,
I already had Boot Magic handling it. IOW, with BM (or other) as boot
manager you can retrofit 9x to the XP partition easily.

Shane


  #6  
Old June 11th 04, 08:29 PM
*Vanguard*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

Rick T said in :
*Vanguard* wrote:

Windows
9x/ME screws up the boot sector for Windows NT/2000/XP but only if
you use Microsoft's dual-boot where you install both within the same
partition.



I was under the impression (and have found from past experience) that
any type of Windows installation stomps all over the MBR.


Rick


Another Windows installation *within* the SAME partition will stomp on
the boot sector for THAT partition. The bootstrap program is fairly
standardized (for Microsoft) and doesn't do much other than to check
which partition is marked active in the partition table, get the
starting sector for that active partition from its entry in the
partition table, and load the boot sector from that active partition to
start loading the operating system in that partition. I actually saw
that because the partition got created, deleted, and recreated but now
it appeared to be unformatted but the install of Windows ME still did
write its own bootstrap program into the boot sector of that separate
primary partition to get Windows ME to load okay. If Windows ME had
been installed in the same partition as Windows XP (which is why I won't
use Microsoft's dual-boot) then its install would step on the boot
sector that used to hold the bootstrap program for Windows XP.

With Windows 9x/ME and Windows NT/2000/XP vying to overwrite the boot
sector if installed in the same partition, you end up with a partition
boot sector that is not usable for both, but the MBR is still okay. You
can use FIXMBR from Windows XP or "FDISK /MBR" from Windows 98 and still
get the same bootstrap program (or near equivalent) loaded in the first
460 bytes of sector 0 (MBR). I had saved and attempted a restore of the
MBR because I wanted exactly the same bootstrap code that Windows XP
might have put there rather than an equivalent but maybe slightly
differently coded version from Windows ME.

My mistake was restoring the MBR from a copy made *before* I did the
partition resize and new partition creation so I put back the old
partition table (i.e., the one prior to the partition changes). So
Powerquest's mbrutild program is not what I really want. It backs up
and restores the entire MBR (sector 0) and, optionally, also track 0
(since some boot managers will extend into the unused portion of track
0). I still want to do the MBR backups but I'd also like the ability to
restore *just* the bootstrap code portion of the MBR (i.e., the first
460 bytes of the saved MBR over the first 460 bytes of sector 0).
MBRwork (http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html) won't do it as
it will only install a "standard" bootstrap program, not the one
included in your MBR backup. I can do that with the Windows XP install
CD, select Repair (to get the Recovery Console), and run FIXMBR, or use
a Windows 98/ME bootable floppy and run "FDISK /MBR". I suppose I could
use a hex editor to merge the 460 bytes for the bootstrap program from
the original MBR backup to replace the first 460 bytes of an MBR backup
performed later (so the partition table would be current in the edited
MBR backup file) and then use that edited MBR backup file to restore the
original bootstrap code (along with overwriting the same partition table
atop of itself) but that is way too much work and very error prone.
MBRtool (at http://snipurl.com/6imf) might do it but their description
of the /RBC parameter is vague ("refresh", to me, is not the same as
"restore"). The documentation for MBRwizard
(http://mbrwizard.securityorg.net/) is just a bunch of FAQs rather than
real documentation on how to use the utility and you cannot download the
program to see if its help files are any better at explaining what it
can do without first wasting $25 to buy the unknown utility.

For as critical as the MBR is to the health and configuration of your
system, and considering that it has several distinct parts (bytes) for
various functions (and the same within the partition table), the tools
to manage the MBR are very crappy. Just one more step backwards in
usability would put me back to flipping paddle switches on an old Altair
(http://snipurl.com/70iv) to enter the boot program.

--
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  #7  
Old June 11th 04, 08:54 PM
*Vanguard*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

It can be confusing which boot[strap] program is being talked about.
There are 2 of these: the MBR bootstrap program (in sector 0 of the
disk), and the partition boot program (in the first sector of the
partition).

There's the "hardware" bootstrap program in the first 460 bytes of
sector 0 of the first physically scanned hard disk that the BIOS will
load into memory and start its execution. This is the loader program in
the MBR (Master Boot Record) used by the BIOS to "bootstrap" the system.
Its job (for the standard bootstrap program) is to read the partition
table to see which partition is marked as active and where that
partition starts, then load the OS boot program in the first sector of
that partition.

There's the "OS" boot program in the first sector of the partition in
which the OS resides. This is the one that actually starts loading the
operating system. If you install multiple operating systems in parallel
within the same partition, each will write its loader program into the
"boot sector" of THAT partition. They do not (or should not) write into
the 460-byte bootstrap area of the MBR (unless the bootstrap program is
missing). To keep the various DOS/Windows products from stepping on
each other's loader program in the partition's boot sector, I install
them into separate partitions. The MBR restore was an optional step
that I could have and should have avoided.


  #8  
Old June 11th 04, 10:59 PM
Rick T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

I just remembered trying to dual-boot Linux and W95 (and maybe ME at
some point) and having to either do Linux second, or save/restore the
MBR, 'cuz Windows overwrote LILO (which AFAIK is in the MBR not the
partition portion).


*Vanguard* wrote:
It can be confusing which boot[strap] program is being talked about.
There are 2 of these: the MBR bootstrap program (in sector 0 of the
disk), and the partition boot program (in the first sector of the
partition).

There's the "hardware" bootstrap program in the first 460 bytes of
sector 0 of the first physically scanned hard disk that the BIOS will
load into memory and start its execution. This is the loader program in
the MBR (Master Boot Record) used by the BIOS to "bootstrap" the system.
Its job (for the standard bootstrap program) is to read the partition
table to see which partition is marked as active and where that
partition starts, then load the OS boot program in the first sector of
that partition.

There's the "OS" boot program in the first sector of the partition in
which the OS resides. This is the one that actually starts loading the
operating system. If you install multiple operating systems in parallel
within the same partition, each will write its loader program into the
"boot sector" of THAT partition. They do not (or should not) write into
the 460-byte bootstrap area of the MBR (unless the bootstrap program is
missing). To keep the various DOS/Windows products from stepping on
each other's loader program in the partition's boot sector, I install
them into separate partitions. The MBR restore was an optional step
that I could have and should have avoided.


  #9  
Old June 12th 04, 04:19 AM
*Vanguard*
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Zero-byte D: drive should not show, C: missing from Device Manager

Rick T said in :
I just remembered trying to dual-boot Linux and W95 (and maybe ME at
some point) and having to either do Linux second, or save/restore the
MBR, 'cuz Windows overwrote LILO (which AFAIK is in the MBR not the
partition portion).


My brain cells that were retaining memories of Windows 95 have died off
or so few remain that there remain no coherent experience to recall what
it did on an install. Of course, I have been known to be wrong. The KB
articles at http://support.microsoft.com/?id=126671 and
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=69013 make it appear the Windows setup
does overwrite the bootstrap code in the MBR. Microsoft probably won't
trust anyone but Microsoft for the bootstrap program. But is also looks
like LILO is a boot manager that doesn't necessarily have to usurp the
MBR in order to work and could leave the standard bootstrap program in
place and have it load the boot program in the boot sector for the
partition in which Linux was installed to run LILO. I'm not familiar
with setup of Linux.

Yet there are other articles to backup my statement that the MBR
bootstrap doesn't get overwritten if one already exists. For example,
see http://www.geocities.com/thestarman3..._in_detail.htm
(under the link describing the Windows 2000/XP MBR). So it may be that
95-based versions of Windows are rude in overwriting the MBR bootstrap
program but NT-based versions of Windows are not. However, this article
talks about the Disk Management Console in Windows XP not overwriting an
existing bootstrap program but really doesn't mention what happens on
installing Windows XP. So I'm still confused on this issue.

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