Just an observation

Lately reading posts here. And I don't think anyone here
is intentionally feeling this way. But the answers from
some of the MVPs come across,to me, in their answers as if
they are God and anyone posting here is dirt.
If you have the answer? Say it.
Some answers read like "I know but you don't...
Nahna,Nahna,Boo,Boo."
Or the person are sent to some other URL. With no other
explanation. "Do A Google Search" is a common one. Sending
someone to Google is fine.
But with some of the questions posed here sending that
person to do a search and then they follow some of the
leads from the search could be like sending a chicken to a
Coyote Convention. Google results do not filter out
malicious web sites. And there are tons of web sites out
there that offer fixes but are only there to hack into,or
infect, your computer.
Like I said...if you have an answer? Say it. If you don't
know? Say you don't know.

Hi ppoatt,
I know how you feel. However, I *don't* believe the MVP's are exhibiting a
God complex--at least not what I've seen.
I'll never profess to be the smartest kid on the block, and I do what I can
to help those that need help. Lord knows, people (and that is mainly MVP's)
were here to help me when I was green (still am).
In all honesty, there are some days when I feel like throwing up my hands
when I hear one more person ask "Where can I d/l W98SE", or things in a
similar vein. I have to remember that *I* was there once. There are some
days where I just have to take the day off, because things in the NG get
just too nuts for me. But, bear in mind, that's *my* problem, not the
posters. I would suggest that even the MVP's get a little tired of hearing
the same queries day after day, obviously with no attempt to see if the
problem has been previously posted.
Have the MVP's (or non MVP's) been short with some of our posters at times?
YES. They are only human.
To see a true class act in action, see Gary S. Terhune's exchange with Sue.
I believe it was yesterday. It looked as though it was going to be bloody,
but it wasn't.

As far as posting links, *I* don't like to do that, but sometimes the
appropriate fix is so long, that a link to a KB article might be the best
thing.
--
Curt--and NOT the MVP Curt Christianson (I wish!)
W98 Support & Discussion:
http://dundats.proboards27.com/index.cgi
Windows How-tos and and Freewa
http://mvps.org/PracticallyNerded/
Windows Help & Discussion:
http://forum.aumha.org/

"ppoatt" wrote in message
...
Lately reading posts here. And I don't think anyone here
is intentionally feeling this way. But the answers from
some of the MVPs come across,to me, in their answers as if
they are God and anyone posting here is dirt.
If you have the answer? Say it.
Some answers read like "I know but you don't...
Nahna,Nahna,Boo,Boo."
Or the person are sent to some other URL. With no other
explanation. "Do A Google Search" is a common one. Sending
someone to Google is fine.
But with some of the questions posed here sending that
person to do a search and then they follow some of the
leads from the search could be like sending a chicken to a
Coyote Convention. Google results do not filter out
malicious web sites. And there are tons of web sites out
there that offer fixes but are only there to hack into,or
infect, your computer.
Like I said...if you have an answer? Say it. If you don't
know? Say you don't know.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/5/04

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:16:48 -0500, "Curt Christianson"
wrote:

Hi ppoatt,
I know how you feel. However, I *don't* believe the MVP's are exhibiting a
God complex--at least not what I've seen.
I'll never profess to be the smartest kid on the block, and I do what I can
to help those that need help. Lord knows, people (and that is mainly MVP's)
were here to help me when I was green (still am).
In all honesty, there are some days when I feel like throwing up my hands
when I hear one more person ask "Where can I d/l W98SE", or things in a
similar vein. I have to remember that *I* was there once. There are some
days where I just have to take the day off, because things in the NG get
just too nuts for me. But, bear in mind, that's *my* problem, not the
posters. I would suggest that even the MVP's get a little tired of hearing
the same queries day after day, obviously with no attempt to see if the
problem has been previously posted.

Please keep in mind that the people who annoy you probably
don't have a clue that they CAN find a similar thread which
will answer their question. Besides, everyone thinks their
problems are unique AND when frustrated, go to a place where
someone can "speak" and give them "individualized" advice on
what to do.

What I find humorous ('cause I'm not the one fielding
questions) is how you get a stream of questions on one
subject. Then someone queries about something different and
the tide turns. That's what I mean about everyone thinking
their problem is "different". To the seasoned, they are all
the same question. To those who ask, they are entirely
different.

:-)


Practice safe eating - always use condiments

I suspect I know where your venom is coming from, but if you are going to
make such damning statements, how about citing some specific examples?

We usually point to other URLs only when, and because, they are the best
answer available. We occasionally point to Google because it is the best
resource available for certain things. Speaking for myself, I seldom just
send someone out to Google for an answer, for the very reasons you cite. And
I don't know of any MVPs who do. Yes, Google is a good research tool, but
like any other tool you have to know how to use it. Still, I myself start
with Google *hundreds* of times a month to at least begin research on the
answer for someone's question in this newsgroup--heck, Google is my home
page! So suggesting that someone might want to learn to use it themselves
can't be *all* bad, eh?

With a significant majority of the problems I involve myself with (including
all the repetitions), I know the answer, or at least know what questions to
ask that will further the process of trouble-shooting, or what procedures to
perform to begin a process of elimination. But for the rest, I spend
anywhere from five to ten minutes, to hours or even days and weeks,
researching the issue--online with Google, the MSKB, manufacturers' sites,
MSDN Library, books I have on the shelves, etc., or by tracking down a
fellow MVP (and occasionally an MSFT) who might know a bit on the subject,
or even by replicating the issue on a test machine (though I haven't had one
handy for a couple of months.) Then I work hard to put the proper answer
into the proper context for the person who needs it.

No, I *don't* know all the answers, though I'm *damned* good at finding
them. But when I recognize an issue as being one I don't specialize in, one
that others are far more capable of dealing with, I don't respond. Yes, I am
occasionally wrong, sometimes horribly so. That's why we do things in a
group, so others can jump in and correct our mistakes, or add ideas,
insights and specific knowledge. We all have our special interests, (those
of us who know us well, or who are so unfortunate as to have to live with us
would call them rabid obsessions), and we do our best to share the wealth.

While I have always thought you to be a fairly decent chap, I'm not only
taken aback, I'm downright insulted by your characterization of MVPs as
lording it over others. No, we don't suffer fools gladly sometimes (but it's
amazing how often we do), and yes, we can be downright intense when it's our
*opinions* that are involved. But if we evince frustration, it's not usually
with the persons themselves, it's with their lack of skill in communicating
their issues and responding appropriately to questions and suggestions. It's
nothing personal--the frustration is that we *can't* help them until they
learn to help us help them. Other sources of ongoing and underlying
frustration include crapware that's foisted on unsuspecting users as being
"magic bullets", or the CDO interface at MS Support, etc. We try to keep
that out of our "voices", but sometimes it just leaks through. Plus, there's
the simple matter of this communication medium being prone to
misunderstandings. My wife and I met in a Yahoo! chat room, and our
courtship lasted over a year using ICQ. Sometimes we had real arguments, but
oftentimes the problem was simply misunderstanding. As she was (and is) wont
to say, "The problem with "Chat" is that there's no 'Tone of voice'."

On the other hand, there is also an unfortunate attitude of entitlement
among a significant number of "requesters", and that ain't how it works.
Ask, and if someone has the answer they will be glad to provide it. If they
don't, they will likely be more than happy to help find it--but this is a
*peer* support forum. Users helping other users, MVPs or not. We're all here
to *learn*, as alien a concept as that appears to be to many people these
days. Part of that learning process is how to help yourself begin the
process of finding answers to your own problems and to learn how to present
your issue to others in writing so that they are supplied with enough
information to go on.

Again, ppoatt, if you have some specific examples of MVPs malfeasance, or
whatever, please provide them. But if this is primarily a rant deriving from
yours and my earlier conversation on the merits of CIC, then I suggest you
get over it. You asked me to consider a 'cleanup utility' that you think is
useful, and you asked it in such a way as to suggest that I might want to
add it to my short list of recommended useful utilities. I responded that
not only was I not in a position to test it at this time, I am also
generally opposed to such utilities on principle. You chose to "convince"
me, and so I made my position more starkly clear. It was nothing personal,
and you should not take it as such. You've been around long enough, and have
read enough of my work, that you should have already *known* my attitude
towards such things. I don't like idiot-proofing! Heck, I won't even
recommend George Geyde's GEODisk, and I consider him a friend and an
excellent provider of useful utilities. I don't know that there is anything
specifically problematic with GEODisk, but my *philosophy* towards such
things is that they have the *potential* to wreak havoc under certain
conditions. Thus, I will not recommend such utilities, not when manual
methods are almost as easy for the user (and definitely more enlightening)
once he or she gets a little practice.

For myself, my task here is *not* just to provide answers--it's to help
people help themselves. To perhaps teach them a more sane approach to
computer use that leaves the world of idiot-proofing behind.

"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and
you have fed him for a lifetime"-Author unknown

I verified the wording of that quote at http://www.amatecon.com/fish.html.
It's one of a relatively few such aphorisms that I can truly say has guided
my lifestyle. However, I think another "Improvement" listed there was rather
apropos: "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to
fish; and you will not have to listen to his incessant whining about how
hungry he is."-Author unknown

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS MVP for Win9x

"ppoatt" wrote in message
...
Lately reading posts here. And I don't think anyone here
is intentionally feeling this way. But the answers from
some of the MVPs come across,to me, in their answers as if
they are God and anyone posting here is dirt.
If you have the answer? Say it.
Some answers read like "I know but you don't...
Nahna,Nahna,Boo,Boo."
Or the person are sent to some other URL. With no other
explanation. "Do A Google Search" is a common one. Sending
someone to Google is fine.
But with some of the questions posed here sending that
person to do a search and then they follow some of the
leads from the search could be like sending a chicken to a
Coyote Convention. Google results do not filter out
malicious web sites. And there are tons of web sites out
there that offer fixes but are only there to hack into,or
infect, your computer.
Like I said...if you have an answer? Say it. If you don't
know? Say you don't know.

Hi Curt Christianson,

Hi ppoatt,
I know how you feel. However, I *don't* believe the MVP's are exhibiting a
God complex--at least not what I've seen.
I'll never profess to be the smartest kid on the block, and I do what I can
to help those that need help. Lord knows, people (and that is mainly MVP's)
were here to help me when I was green (still am).
In all honesty, there are some days when I feel like throwing up my hands
when I hear one more person ask "Where can I d/l W98SE", or things in a
similar vein. I have to remember that *I* was there once. There are some
days where I just have to take the day off, because things in the NG get
just too nuts for me. But, bear in mind, that's *my* problem, not the
posters. I would suggest that even the MVP's get a little tired of hearing
the same queries day after day, obviously with no attempt to see if the
problem has been previously posted.
Have the MVP's (or non MVP's) been short with some of our posters at times?
YES. They are only human.
To see a true class act in action, see Gary S. Terhune's exchange with Sue.
I believe it was yesterday. It looked as though it was going to be bloody,
but it wasn't.

As far as posting links, *I* don't like to do that, but sometimes the
appropriate fix is so long, that a link to a KB article might be the best
thing.
--
Curt--and NOT the MVP Curt Christianson (I wish!)
W98 Support & Discussion:
http://dundats.proboards27.com/index.cgi
Windows How-tos and and Freewa
http://mvps.org/PracticallyNerded/
Windows Help & Discussion:
http://forum.aumha.org/

I can second your opinion Curt, moreover, I have posted a reflection in that "Gary - Sue" thread too.

As for the "links" issue, I think Google is great for searching, but the tons of results discourage many people that need to get their problem solved. Also, a link to a 'trusted' info provider is mostly very handy. Many times it's the combination of problem symptoms people have, and the ability to 'talk' them over with someone qualified, that brings up a solution, even if it's "just" a link.Often askers come in this newsgroup because they dont know where to go with their problem, on the other hand, it calls for great patience from the solution providers to reply the same thing over and over.

Another possibility to sove things, and thats what im trying to achieve, is having access to a database with known remedies for known problems.
This said, I am building a site, that should be an additional tool to help solve system problems, contains bunches of links.
Everyone welcome for peeking in, it's in development
--
Windows98 links to solutions http://jake98.no-ip.info
Replies in the same thread please
Regards Jake

"ppoatt" wrote in message
...
Lately reading posts here. And I don't think anyone here
is intentionally feeling this way. But the answers from
some of the MVPs come across,to me, in their answers as if
they are God and anyone posting here is dirt.

Been on the receiving (dirt) end of that for many years.

If you have the answer? Say it.

My experiences don't always follow status quo, hell to pay then.

Some answers read like "I know but you don't...
Nahna,Nahna,Boo,Boo."
Or the person are sent to some other URL. With no other
explanation. "Do A Google Search" is a common one. Sending
someone to Google is fine.

The point being is how easy it is to find an answer, or more than one
answer.

But with some of the questions posed here sending that
person to do a search and then they follow some of the
leads from the search could be like sending a chicken to a
Coyote Convention. Google results do not filter out
malicious web sites. And there are tons of web sites out
there that offer fixes but are only there to hack into,or
infect, your computer.

Don't think anyone who supplies a reply would intentionally do that. Nor
would I expect anyone who supplies a link to research its potential bugs.

Like I said...if you have an answer? Say it. If you don't
know? Say you don't know.

If I don't have a clue, I simply don't reply. Its not rocket science.

Hi Gary,
You are a great fountain of knowledge.
I will just pick 2 post even though I would be able to
point out more.
1: "Password Manager suggestion needed" posted by "Big
Mac" on June5 you point counter point w/"Mostly Me"
First I thank you for some what backing me on that.
I see what "Mostly Me" said is valid and what you said is
valid. But when it gets down to the main reasons for using
or not using something. You drop it and fall back on what
your preferences are. And not what the poster may need.Or
want. I feel you are allot like my brother. If my need is
not the same as his then my need is invalid.
You may need the few cookies and such on your machine or
not need the password recall. But others may need the
password recall and not need the cookies. Each post is an
individual with differant needs. Even though the question
may have been answered here a million times. When the
million and one comes? It should be answered as if it was
the first time posted. Because the poster probably is here
for the first time.
2:"Is this bad advice or a bad program or both?" by "Greg
R" on June 4.
Your answer " Do you even know what BT...."
That was one of the "I know and you don't".
You could have explained what it is. For one...I would
like to know. Even though I will probly never need or use
the program.
I as like many others look up to you for advice. And a
line like yours, there, was flat out frustrating.
You are a MVP here. Given that title by MS. To help
people. People who are not adept as you in Windows and
computing. The time and effort you put in as MVP is
greatly appreciated by all. And we all know that MVPs do
not get paid for thier efforts here. But you have to see
each person,here, that does not have MVP behind their name
as an individual that needs help for their particular
problem. For their particular needs. Not someone you can
clone into your way of thinking.
The Google Search. I open two browsers. One to MSN home
page and the other to Google. Typed in both,search
windows, identically "Vxd Errors" without the quotes.
Google starts off with sites that I have never been to or
heard of. MSN Search starts off with the MS sites that may
have the answer.
Being a MS-MVP wouldn't it be best to direct someone to
MSN Search. After all we are talking about a MS product
here. And MSN Search results always starts with MSN or MS
sites. Unless none are available. That is my stand on Web
Search Engines.
Back to CIC.. I honor your feelings about it.
You...through your work here and your own preferences do
not need such a program. But that does not mean the common
web browser like me does not. It is suggested to run
AdAware over and over again after reboots to clean malware
off their machine if need be. CIC pro does this at one
use. And I...as for many here do not need to keep a cookie
collection on their machine. To the commaon user cookies
take up space and cause problems. It may help in a faster
opening of a previously visited web site. But other then
that they are useless to the common browser. And the
feature I really like about it is the deletetion of the
index.dat files. It is not my paranoia. It is a matter of
eventual space hogging and the fact that windows will not
let you delete them like you would cookies. They are not
needed what so ever to run or maintain the Windows system.
Or IE for that matter. Index.dat files over a year can get
massive. And someone running a small HD should not have to
tolerate such a space user. When it is totally not needed.
Tell me in your dealings with Windows,the web and IE.
What use are the index.dat files? Other then a mild form
of embedded spyware.
My self... I am,for over 30 years,an Industrial
Maintenance Tech. I work on multi-million dollar machines
that have multi-million dollar production schedules. When
one faulters? I have to know what to do to get it back up
and running. And quickly.
I have to,in my mind, look through metal,miles of wireing
and tons of electronics to come up with some form of
attack plan. It's like hitting a bullseye around a corner.
I am very good at diagnosing with just knowing the basic
function of the machine.
But here I am a novice. I will try to help someone if I
have experienced the same problem or simular. Or can see
the function and process of the particular hardware one is
posting about. I then leave a reasonable assumtion of my
thoughts/findings. If I am wrong? I dearly hope some one
steps in and corrects it.
Bottom line... I do not have the knowledge base or the
backing you have. But. I do have a solid machine. No
viruses. No malware. No conflicts.
This is from being vigilant on what I deem needed to keep
it running. Not anyone elses.
From reading your answers along with all others here.
Never going to Google to search.
Never using Outlook Express.
And daily use of CIC.
Good Day.
-----Original Message-----
I suspect I know where your venom is coming from, but if
you are going to
make such damning statements, how about citing some
specific examples?

We usually point to other URLs only when, and because,
they are the best
answer available. We occasionally point to Google because
it is the best
resource available for certain things. Speaking for
myself, I seldom just
send someone out to Google for an answer, for the very
reasons you cite. And
I don't know of any MVPs who do. Yes, Google is a good
research tool, but
like any other tool you have to know how to use it.
Still, I myself start
with Google *hundreds* of times a month to at least begin
research on the
answer for someone's question in this newsgroup--heck,
Google is my home
page! So suggesting that someone might want to learn to
use it themselves
can't be *all* bad, eh?

With a significant majority of the problems I involve
myself with (including
all the repetitions), I know the answer, or at least know
what questions to
ask that will further the process of trouble-shooting, or
what procedures to
perform to begin a process of elimination. But for the
rest, I spend
anywhere from five to ten minutes, to hours or even days
and weeks,
researching the issue--online with Google, the MSKB,
manufacturers' sites,
MSDN Library, books I have on the shelves, etc., or by
tracking down a
fellow MVP (and occasionally an MSFT) who might know a
bit on the subject,
or even by replicating the issue on a test machine
(though I haven't had one
handy for a couple of months.) Then I work hard to put
the proper answer
into the proper context for the person who needs it.

No, I *don't* know all the answers, though I'm *damned*
good at finding
them. But when I recognize an issue as being one I don't
specialize in, one
that others are far more capable of dealing with, I don't
respond. Yes, I am
occasionally wrong, sometimes horribly so. That's why we
do things in a
group, so others can jump in and correct our mistakes, or
add ideas,
insights and specific knowledge. We all have our special
interests, (those
of us who know us well, or who are so unfortunate as to
have to live with us
would call them rabid obsessions), and we do our best to
share the wealth.

While I have always thought you to be a fairly decent
chap, I'm not only
taken aback, I'm downright insulted by your
characterization of MVPs as
lording it over others. No, we don't suffer fools gladly
sometimes (but it's
amazing how often we do), and yes, we can be downright
intense when it's our
*opinions* that are involved. But if we evince
frustration, it's not usually
with the persons themselves, it's with their lack of
skill in communicating
their issues and responding appropriately to questions
and suggestions. It's
nothing personal--the frustration is that we *can't* help
them until they
learn to help us help them. Other sources of ongoing and
underlying
frustration include crapware that's foisted on
unsuspecting users as being
"magic bullets", or the CDO interface at MS Support, etc.
We try to keep
that out of our "voices", but sometimes it just leaks
through. Plus, there's
the simple matter of this communication medium being
prone to
misunderstandings. My wife and I met in a Yahoo! chat
room, and our
courtship lasted over a year using ICQ. Sometimes we had
real arguments, but
oftentimes the problem was simply misunderstanding. As
she was (and is) wont
to say, "The problem with "Chat" is that there's no 'Tone
of voice'."

On the other hand, there is also an unfortunate attitude
of entitlement
among a significant number of "requesters", and that
ain't how it works.
Ask, and if someone has the answer they will be glad to
provide it. If they
don't, they will likely be more than happy to help find
it--but this is a
*peer* support forum. Users helping other users, MVPs or
not. We're all here
to *learn*, as alien a concept as that appears to be to
many people these
days. Part of that learning process is how to help
yourself begin the
process of finding answers to your own problems and to
learn how to present
your issue to others in writing so that they are supplied
with enough
information to go on.

Again, ppoatt, if you have some specific examples of MVPs
malfeasance, or
whatever, please provide them. But if this is primarily a
rant deriving from
yours and my earlier conversation on the merits of CIC,
then I suggest you
get over it. You asked me to consider a 'cleanup utility'
that you think is
useful, and you asked it in such a way as to suggest that
I might want to
add it to my short list of recommended useful utilities.
I responded that
not only was I not in a position to test it at this time,
I am also
generally opposed to such utilities on principle. You
chose to "convince"
me, and so I made my position more starkly clear. It was
nothing personal,
and you should not take it as such. You've been around
long enough, and have
read enough of my work, that you should have already
*known* my attitude
towards such things. I don't like idiot-proofing! Heck, I
won't even
recommend George Geyde's GEODisk, and I consider him a
friend and an
excellent provider of useful utilities. I don't know that
there is anything
specifically problematic with GEODisk, but my
*philosophy* towards such
things is that they have the *potential* to wreak havoc
under certain
conditions. Thus, I will not recommend such utilities,
not when manual
methods are almost as easy for the user (and definitely
more enlightening)
once he or she gets a little practice.

For myself, my task here is *not* just to provide answers-
-it's to help
people help themselves. To perhaps teach them a more sane
approach to
computer use that leaves the world of idiot-proofing
behind.

"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a
man to fish; and
you have fed him for a lifetime"-Author unknown

I verified the wording of that quote at
http://www.amatecon.com/fish.html.
It's one of a relatively few such aphorisms that I can
truly say has guided
my lifestyle. However, I think another "Improvement"
listed there was rather
apropos: "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today.
Teach a man to
fish; and you will not have to listen to his incessant
whining about how
hungry he is."-Author unknown

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS MVP for Win9x

"ppoatt" wrote in
message
...
Lately reading posts here. And I don't think anyone here
is intentionally feeling this way. But the answers from
some of the MVPs come across,to me, in their answers as
if
they are God and anyone posting here is dirt.
If you have the answer? Say it.
Some answers read like "I know but you don't...
Nahna,Nahna,Boo,Boo."
Or the person are sent to some other URL. With no other
explanation. "Do A Google Search" is a common one.
Sending
someone to Google is fine.
But with some of the questions posed here sending that
person to do a search and then they follow some of the
leads from the search could be like sending a chicken
to a
Coyote Convention. Google results do not filter out
malicious web sites. And there are tons of web sites out
there that offer fixes but are only there to hack
into,or
infect, your computer.
Like I said...if you have an answer? Say it. If you
don't
know? Say you don't know.

.

To Gary S. Terhune, wish I had this advantage
I use my own then figure out the cure. Haven't
far enough to totally crash yet!! and I only
do this with what I think is an OS problem or
maintenance problem. Try to post simple instructions
is also my priority because you never know
how technical inclined the other party is.



Snip

-----Original Message-----

or even by replicating the issue on a test machine (though
I haven't had one
handy for a couple of months.)

I wonder why PCR has not jumped into this?
-----Original Message-----
Hi Gary,
You are a great fountain of knowledge.
I will just pick 2 post even though I would be able to
point out more.
1: "Password Manager suggestion needed" posted by "Big
Mac" on June5 you point counter point w/"Mostly Me"
First I thank you for some what backing me on that.
I see what "Mostly Me" said is valid and what you said is
valid. But when it gets down to the main reasons for
using
or not using something. You drop it and fall back on what
your preferences are. And not what the poster may need.Or
want. I feel you are allot like my brother. If my need is
not the same as his then my need is invalid.
You may need the few cookies and such on your machine or
not need the password recall. But others may need the
password recall and not need the cookies. Each post is an
individual with differant needs. Even though the question
may have been answered here a million times. When the
million and one comes? It should be answered as if it was
the first time posted. Because the poster probably is
here
for the first time.
2:"Is this bad advice or a bad program or both?" by "Greg
R" on June 4.
Your answer " Do you even know what BT...."
That was one of the "I know and you don't".
You could have explained what it is. For one...I would
like to know. Even though I will probly never need or use
the program.
I as like many others look up to you for advice. And a
line like yours, there, was flat out frustrating.
You are a MVP here. Given that title by MS. To help
people. People who are not adept as you in Windows and
computing. The time and effort you put in as MVP is
greatly appreciated by all. And we all know that MVPs do
not get paid for thier efforts here. But you have to see
each person,here, that does not have MVP behind their
name
as an individual that needs help for their particular
problem. For their particular needs. Not someone you can
clone into your way of thinking.
The Google Search. I open two browsers. One to MSN home
page and the other to Google. Typed in both,search
windows, identically "Vxd Errors" without the quotes.
Google starts off with sites that I have never been to or
heard of. MSN Search starts off with the MS sites that
may
have the answer.
Being a MS-MVP wouldn't it be best to direct someone to
MSN Search. After all we are talking about a MS product
here. And MSN Search results always starts with MSN or MS
sites. Unless none are available. That is my stand on Web
Search Engines.
Back to CIC.. I honor your feelings about it.
You...through your work here and your own preferences do
not need such a program. But that does not mean the
common
web browser like me does not. It is suggested to run
AdAware over and over again after reboots to clean
malware
off their machine if need be. CIC pro does this at one
use. And I...as for many here do not need to keep a
cookie
collection on their machine. To the commaon user cookies
take up space and cause problems. It may help in a faster
opening of a previously visited web site. But other then
that they are useless to the common browser. And the
feature I really like about it is the deletetion of the
index.dat files. It is not my paranoia. It is a matter of
eventual space hogging and the fact that windows will not
let you delete them like you would cookies. They are not
needed what so ever to run or maintain the Windows
system.
Or IE for that matter. Index.dat files over a year can
get
massive. And someone running a small HD should not have
to
tolerate such a space user. When it is totally not needed.
Tell me in your dealings with Windows,the web and IE.
What use are the index.dat files? Other then a mild form
of embedded spyware.
My self... I am,for over 30 years,an Industrial
Maintenance Tech. I work on multi-million dollar machines
that have multi-million dollar production schedules. When
one faulters? I have to know what to do to get it back up
and running. And quickly.
I have to,in my mind, look through metal,miles of
wireing
and tons of electronics to come up with some form of
attack plan. It's like hitting a bullseye around a corner.
I am very good at diagnosing with just knowing the basic
function of the machine.
But here I am a novice. I will try to help someone if I
have experienced the same problem or simular. Or can see
the function and process of the particular hardware one
is
posting about. I then leave a reasonable assumtion of my
thoughts/findings. If I am wrong? I dearly hope some one
steps in and corrects it.
Bottom line... I do not have the knowledge base or the
backing you have. But. I do have a solid machine. No
viruses. No malware. No conflicts.
This is from being vigilant on what I deem needed to
keep
it running. Not anyone elses.
From reading your answers along with all others here.
Never going to Google to search.
Never using Outlook Express.
And daily use of CIC.
Good Day.
-----Original Message-----
I suspect I know where your venom is coming from, but if
you are going to
make such damning statements, how about citing some
specific examples?

We usually point to other URLs only when, and because,
they are the best
answer available. We occasionally point to Google
because
it is the best
resource available for certain things. Speaking for
myself, I seldom just
send someone out to Google for an answer, for the very
reasons you cite. And
I don't know of any MVPs who do. Yes, Google is a good
research tool, but
like any other tool you have to know how to use it.
Still, I myself start
with Google *hundreds* of times a month to at least
begin
research on the
answer for someone's question in this newsgroup--heck,
Google is my home
page! So suggesting that someone might want to learn to
use it themselves
can't be *all* bad, eh?

With a significant majority of the problems I involve
myself with (including
all the repetitions), I know the answer, or at least
know
what questions to
ask that will further the process of trouble-shooting,
or
what procedures to
perform to begin a process of elimination. But for the
rest, I spend
anywhere from five to ten minutes, to hours or even days
and weeks,
researching the issue--online with Google, the MSKB,
manufacturers' sites,
MSDN Library, books I have on the shelves, etc., or by
tracking down a
fellow MVP (and occasionally an MSFT) who might know a
bit on the subject,
or even by replicating the issue on a test machine
(though I haven't had one
handy for a couple of months.) Then I work hard to put
the proper answer
into the proper context for the person who needs it.

No, I *don't* know all the answers, though I'm *damned*
good at finding
them. But when I recognize an issue as being one I don't
specialize in, one
that others are far more capable of dealing with, I
don't
respond. Yes, I am
occasionally wrong, sometimes horribly so. That's why we
do things in a
group, so others can jump in and correct our mistakes,
or
add ideas,
insights and specific knowledge. We all have our special
interests, (those
of us who know us well, or who are so unfortunate as to
have to live with us
would call them rabid obsessions), and we do our best to
share the wealth.

While I have always thought you to be a fairly decent
chap, I'm not only
taken aback, I'm downright insulted by your
characterization of MVPs as
lording it over others. No, we don't suffer fools gladly
sometimes (but it's
amazing how often we do), and yes, we can be downright
intense when it's our
*opinions* that are involved. But if we evince
frustration, it's not usually
with the persons themselves, it's with their lack of
skill in communicating
their issues and responding appropriately to questions
and suggestions. It's
nothing personal--the frustration is that we *can't*
help
them until they
learn to help us help them. Other sources of ongoing and
underlying
frustration include crapware that's foisted on
unsuspecting users as being
"magic bullets", or the CDO interface at MS Support,
etc.
We try to keep
that out of our "voices", but sometimes it just leaks
through. Plus, there's
the simple matter of this communication medium being
prone to
misunderstandings. My wife and I met in a Yahoo! chat
room, and our
courtship lasted over a year using ICQ. Sometimes we had
real arguments, but
oftentimes the problem was simply misunderstanding. As
she was (and is) wont
to say, "The problem with "Chat" is that there's
no 'Tone
of voice'."

On the other hand, there is also an unfortunate attitude
of entitlement
among a significant number of "requesters", and that
ain't how it works.
Ask, and if someone has the answer they will be glad to
provide it. If they
don't, they will likely be more than happy to help find
it--but this is a
*peer* support forum. Users helping other users, MVPs or
not. We're all here
to *learn*, as alien a concept as that appears to be to
many people these
days. Part of that learning process is how to help
yourself begin the
process of finding answers to your own problems and to
learn how to present
your issue to others in writing so that they are
supplied
with enough
information to go on.

Again, ppoatt, if you have some specific examples of
MVPs
malfeasance, or
whatever, please provide them. But if this is primarily
a
rant deriving from
yours and my earlier conversation on the merits of CIC,
then I suggest you
get over it. You asked me to consider a 'cleanup
utility'
that you think is
useful, and you asked it in such a way as to suggest
that
I might want to
add it to my short list of recommended useful utilities.
I responded that
not only was I not in a position to test it at this
time,
I am also
generally opposed to such utilities on principle. You
chose to "convince"
me, and so I made my position more starkly clear. It was
nothing personal,
and you should not take it as such. You've been around
long enough, and have
read enough of my work, that you should have already
*known* my attitude
towards such things. I don't like idiot-proofing! Heck,
I
won't even
recommend George Geyde's GEODisk, and I consider him a
friend and an
excellent provider of useful utilities. I don't know
that
there is anything
specifically problematic with GEODisk, but my
*philosophy* towards such
things is that they have the *potential* to wreak havoc
under certain
conditions. Thus, I will not recommend such utilities,
not when manual
methods are almost as easy for the user (and definitely
more enlightening)
once he or she gets a little practice.

For myself, my task here is *not* just to provide
answers-
-it's to help
people help themselves. To perhaps teach them a more
sane
approach to
computer use that leaves the world of idiot-proofing
behind.

"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a
man to fish; and
you have fed him for a lifetime"-Author unknown

I verified the wording of that quote at
http://www.amatecon.com/fish.html.
It's one of a relatively few such aphorisms that I can
truly say has guided
my lifestyle. However, I think another "Improvement"
listed there was rather
apropos: "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for
today.
Teach a man to
fish; and you will not have to listen to his incessant
whining about how
hungry he is."-Author unknown

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS MVP for Win9x

"ppoatt" wrote in
message
.. .
Lately reading posts here. And I don't think anyone
here
is intentionally feeling this way. But the answers from
some of the MVPs come across,to me, in their answers
as
if
they are God and anyone posting here is dirt.
If you have the answer? Say it.
Some answers read like "I know but you don't...
Nahna,Nahna,Boo,Boo."
Or the person are sent to some other URL. With no other
explanation. "Do A Google Search" is a common one.
Sending
someone to Google is fine.
But with some of the questions posed here sending that
person to do a search and then they follow some of the
leads from the search could be like sending a chicken
to a
Coyote Convention. Google results do not filter out
malicious web sites. And there are tons of web sites
out
there that offer fixes but are only there to hack
into,or
infect, your computer.
Like I said...if you have an answer? Say it. If you
don't
know? Say you don't know.

.

.

SSSSSSHHHH!!!

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS MVP for Win9x

"ppoatt" wrote in message
...
I wonder why PCR has not jumped into this?