@#$%! Toolbars

"when I was using NAV I didn't have problems as a consequence of running
SR" - possibly because you never attempted to use SR back across a
LiveUpdate point, which broke the Symantec registry entries?


--
Noel Paton (MS-MVP 2002-2005, Windows)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.btinternet.com/~winnoel/millsrpch.htm
http://tinyurl.com/6oztj

Please read http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm on how to post messages to NG's

"Shane" wrote in message
...
Quite, Noel.

And yet - on an unrepresentative note, when I was using NAV I didn't have
problems as a consequence of running SR.

Meanwhile, bear in mind that the advice to disable SR before a scan is
given
by most of the AV companies.


Shane


"Noel Paton" wrote in message
...
Figgs
Your AV, and mine work well after a System Restore for one very good
reason - it's NOT Norton! - I suspect that JAD is using the 'trasher of
systems' that Symantec continue to peddle as being fit-for-use in ME.

--
Noel Paton (MS-MVP 2002-2005, Windows)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.btinternet.com/~winnoel/millsrpch.htm
http://tinyurl.com/6oztj

Please read http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm on how to post messages to NG's

"Heather" wrote in message
...
snip
"JAD" wrote in message
...
snip
Tell me, how does your AV work after a system
restore?

My antivirus works just fine after a System Restore......why wouldn't
it?
Remember what I said above.......I practice safe hex and the last virus
I
got was Happy99 I believe......yes, 1999, 5 or 6 years ago when Vecna
released that one. Due to using that blasted Norton as an AV.

Maybe, but I'd be surprised if I hadn't over three years of it.


Shane

"Noel Paton" wrote in message
...
"when I was using NAV I didn't have problems as a consequence of running
SR" - possibly because you never attempted to use SR back across a
LiveUpdate point, which broke the Symantec registry entries?


--
Noel Paton (MS-MVP 2002-2005, Windows)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.btinternet.com/~winnoel/millsrpch.htm
http://tinyurl.com/6oztj

Please read http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm on how to post messages to NG's

"Shane" wrote in message
...
Quite, Noel.

And yet - on an unrepresentative note, when I was using NAV I didn't
have
problems as a consequence of running SR.

Meanwhile, bear in mind that the advice to disable SR before a scan is
given
by most of the AV companies.


Shane


"Noel Paton" wrote in message
...
Figgs
Your AV, and mine work well after a System Restore for one very good
reason - it's NOT Norton! - I suspect that JAD is using the 'trasher of
systems' that Symantec continue to peddle as being fit-for-use in ME.

--
Noel Paton (MS-MVP 2002-2005, Windows)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.btinternet.com/~winnoel/millsrpch.htm
http://tinyurl.com/6oztj

Please read http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm on how to post messages to
NG's

"Heather" wrote in message
...
snip
"JAD" wrote in message
...
snip
Tell me, how does your AV work after a system
restore?

My antivirus works just fine after a System Restore......why wouldn't
it?
Remember what I said above.......I practice safe hex and the last
virus
I
got was Happy99 I believe......yes, 1999, 5 or 6 years ago when Vecna
released that one. Due to using that blasted Norton as an AV.

Sadly by your posting you continue to display your total ignorance to the
world as to the operation of system restore. You simply don't have a
clue.
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP



JAD wrote:

if you want to rely on system restore go ahead. you are worried about
it when you have to clean your system, this would mean you have no
'BACK UP'. Self styled indeed, system restore works and can get you
out of a jam, no doubt, but you are referring to the ideal situation.
This is rarely the case. Tell me, how does your AV work after a system
restore? Have you tried to reinstall it on a restored/infected
machine? There is absolutely nothing wrong with this information. And
we are talking ME here, not XP. System restore, that's all you get, is
the system restored, not your software.and since most antivirus
software rely on definitions dates, when you go back you have a 50/50
chance of having a stable system and a running anti virus. You think
that you are SAFE because you went back to before the infection, again
knowing when you were infected is another luxury not everybody has.
You have never seen the whole restore/ CPY folder contaminated?
Leaving you nothing, I suppose you have the settings for size to max.
ANOTHER luxury not everybody has, nor would they want. System restore
is the LAST RESORT. You should be reaching for your backup. Backup is
a luxury/? then your data is not important anyway...format and
re-install......

You should be even more afraid of running WITHOUT SP2 installed.

Many of those "horror stories" pretty much boil down to one thing - software
that took advantage of the anemic firewall software that SP1 provided.
Almost all of them can be solved by taking a minute or so to RTFM (yes, Read
The Friendly Manual) and correctly configure the firewall.

A good many others are due to folks plopping SP2 down on top of active
spyware, adware or virus infestations. Easily solved by removing SP2 (yes,
it DOES uninstall, and very cleanly too!) then cleaning up the existing mess
and finally reinstalling SP2.

--
Richard G. Harper [MVP Win9x]
* PLEASE post all messages and replies in the newsgroups
* for the benefit of all. Private mail is usually not replied to.
* My website, such as it is ... http://rgharper.mvps.org/
* HELP us help YOU ... http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm


"Glenn" wrote in message
...
I have a problem with him continuing to want to go back to an "infected
state".

System restore has saved my bacon many times but I naturally go back far
enough to be ahead of the infection.

Incidentally, MS-MVP, I have the cd sent by micro$soft for sp2 lying in
its
sheath beside my machine because I still hear too many horror stories.
I'm
a coward.

Mike M wrote:

Dick Hazeleger wrote:

No? Have a thorough look at the "Anti-Spyware" support forums, when
they find out that you're running ME or XP, the first thing they
will tell you is that you should turn off System Restore... for the
simple reason I wrote above.... BTW: It's the same with virus
infections: turn off the setting, clean the system, turn the
setting on again!

And everyone who gives such advice is wrong and clearly doesn't
understand what and how system restore works. Disable SR and clear
the archive once the problem is resolved but not before as this
removes the lifeline of being able to restore a trashed system to a
good state using a system checkpoint created before infection.

An infected archive will never cause a problem unless a user
voluntarily chooses to restore to a checkpoint created after
infection and before the system was cleaned. Even that might be
acceptable if the user manages to create an unusable system whilst
trying to clean their system. -- Mike Maltby MS-MVP


Ehh, Mike...

How many really bad infected ME/XP systems did you have to "repair"? I
have to, quite regularly, and when a system really is up into the very
core of the system infected, your "lifeline" could be a "lifeline with
a block of concrete at the other end".

Didn't you have the experience that on such systems the spyware was
back after reboot? No? Hmm, then you must have been working on
different ME/XP systems than I. Bottom line: If a system is screwed up
badly (Virus, trojan, Spyware) then your system restore's (archives,
whatever you call them) are so too...

In a reaction to a reply to your above quoted post you write:

But if not yourself a user may well want to restore to an uninfected
checkpoint created prior to any infection. By flushing the restore
archive as a first action one removes such action from ones armoury
of tools.

You forgot to mention "an alert and aware user"; most people don't know
where they got an infection from and when... how in the world could
they go back to an uninfected restore point? First question to people
with problems: "Did you install any software lately?" Second one:
"While surfing was there a pop up demanding to download something, and
did you click the "Yes" button?"... 95% of the people don't know an
answer to these questions because:

a. They are not the only user of the system (kids too for instance)
b. They don't have a clue...

A simple example that everyone will undrstand, and perhaps even
recognize: System is infected with a virus, virus is hidden in a
"system" flagged file. File is saved by the OS in system restore; scan
reveals this, but the file cannot be deleted by the AV-program; cu
Throw away the system restore files (by disabling the feature), after
cleaning the system re-enable it again (and in XP I would manually make
a restore point clearly labeled as "Clean restore point".

Same goes for a system infected with for instance "CoolWeb"; I have
seen it return into the system from restore poitns... only after the
above actions was taken, the system once again was cleaned and a new
fresh restore point ws made, the infection was gone permanently!

Given the other posts you posted in this thread don't expect you to
agree with me, however being over 15 years in the trade of computer
support and (still) very involved in helping people to get rid of
spyware and the alike I thought it would be a good idea to let people
see another opinion with examples based upon practical experience!

Regards
Dick

I have repaired many truly fouled Win Me systems thank you very much. As
to your post it appears that you have problems in understanding what
system restore can and cannot do to help the average user rather than
someone who knows what they might be doing such as perhaps yourself. Your
post contains so many inaccuracies and misconceptions that I have to ask
whether you know anything about the use of system restore. So many that
it is obviously pointless in continuing as you seemingly would prefer to
continue in ignorance than learn anything from such an exchange.

Regards,
--
Mike Maltby



Dick Hazeleger wrote:

How many really bad infected ME/XP systems did you have to "repair"? I
have to, quite regularly, and when a system really is up into the very
core of the system infected, your "lifeline" could be a "lifeline with
a block of concrete at the other end".

Didn't you have the experience that on such systems the spyware was
back after reboot? No? Hmm, then you must have been working on
different ME/XP systems than I. Bottom line: If a system is screwed up
badly (Virus, trojan, Spyware) then your system restore's (archives,
whatever you call them) are so too...

In a reaction to a reply to your above quoted post you write:

But if not yourself a user may well want to restore to an uninfected
checkpoint created prior to any infection. By flushing the restore
archive as a first action one removes such action from ones armoury
of tools.

You forgot to mention "an alert and aware user"; most people don't
know where they got an infection from and when... how in the world
could they go back to an uninfected restore point? First question to
people with problems: "Did you install any software lately?" Second
one: "While surfing was there a pop up demanding to download
something, and did you click the "Yes" button?"... 95% of the people
don't know an answer to these questions because:

a. They are not the only user of the system (kids too for instance)
b. They don't have a clue...

A simple example that everyone will undrstand, and perhaps even
recognize: System is infected with a virus, virus is hidden in a
"system" flagged file. File is saved by the OS in system restore; scan
reveals this, but the file cannot be deleted by the AV-program; cu
Throw away the system restore files (by disabling the feature), after
cleaning the system re-enable it again (and in XP I would manually
make a restore point clearly labeled as "Clean restore point".

Same goes for a system infected with for instance "CoolWeb"; I have
seen it return into the system from restore poitns... only after the
above actions was taken, the system once again was cleaned and a new
fresh restore point ws made, the infection was gone permanently!

Given the other posts you posted in this thread don't expect you to
agree with me, however being over 15 years in the trade of computer
support and (still) very involved in helping people to get rid of
spyware and the alike I thought it would be a good idea to let people
see another opinion with examples based upon practical experience!

Regards
Dick

mike,,, quite simply YOUR the one who has no clue....................you can
point the finger anywhere you want. YOUR post is from a book, my post is
from experience dating back BEFORE windows exsisted, so please, Your
ignorance is only exceeded by your desire to express it.



"Mike M" wrote in message
...
Sadly by your posting you continue to display your total ignorance to the
world as to the operation of system restore. You simply don't have a
clue.
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP



JAD wrote:

if you want to rely on system restore go ahead. you are worried about
it when you have to clean your system, this would mean you have no
'BACK UP'. Self styled indeed, system restore works and can get you
out of a jam, no doubt, but you are referring to the ideal situation.
This is rarely the case. Tell me, how does your AV work after a system
restore? Have you tried to reinstall it on a restored/infected
machine? There is absolutely nothing wrong with this information. And
we are talking ME here, not XP. System restore, that's all you get, is
the system restored, not your software.and since most antivirus
software rely on definitions dates, when you go back you have a 50/50
chance of having a stable system and a running anti virus. You think
that you are SAFE because you went back to before the infection, again
knowing when you were infected is another luxury not everybody has.
You have never seen the whole restore/ CPY folder contaminated?
Leaving you nothing, I suppose you have the settings for size to max.
ANOTHER luxury not everybody has, nor would they want. System restore
is the LAST RESORT. You should be reaching for your backup. Backup is
a luxury/? then your data is not important anyway...format and
re-install......

On that special day, Shane, ) said...

System Restore is valuable because backups are rarely made on a daily basis.
Reasonably often on disinfecting the system, some component is found not to
work anymore. If System Restore is still available it may provide the
opportunity to restore to before infection but since the last backup
(assuming one has been made).

If you want to give us the idea that system restore is the ultimate
solution to a screwed up computer, you are misunderstanding something.
It cannot be a do-it-all wonder. It can replace some files with older
versions, and replace messed up registries, and that's it.

I myself deactivated my system restore in Windows ME in late 2000, and
guess what. My machine never was screwed up, didn't get infected by any
worm although there were dozens if not hundreds in the mail box, and
hasn't yet been trojanized or hijacked.

Why? I don't run Outlook Express for fetching mail, but T-Online eMail,
which is an extremely "dumb" mail program, and cannot be coaxed to "run"
"wavefiles" because of a malformed attachment declaration. And I surf
with opera or Mozilla, but never with an Internet Explorer.

So my system is free of any given malware, and this WITHOUT system
restore. Someone who cannot keep his computer clean because of too basic
knowledge about how to operate it, will probably also be unable to tell
apart which restore point might be safe, and which not. And if the
malware has planted itself into the _RESTORE folder, it might restore
itself into activity, exactly what you DON'T want to happen.

System restore might work ok in exactly one case - you install a new
driver or a botched Norton, and after restart, your machine gives a lot
of errors. Restoring *immediately* after the screw up, can fix this.

But even then, you have to be able to at least start *into* Windows. If
all you get is a blue screen and a "Windows will now shut down", your
wonderful system restore is moot. Because it can only be run from
*inside* Windows.

Acronis True Image, PowerQuest Drive Image and Norton Ghost on the other
hand, can be run from *outside* Windows. This is what JAD was referring
to, when he spoke of a BACK UP.

Got it?


Gabriele Neukam




--
Ah, Information. A good, too valuable these days, to give it away, just
so, at no cost.

I speak from experience of working with Win Me and system restore whereas
you are clearly speaking from your nether regions.
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP



JAD wrote:

mike,,, quite simply YOUR the one who has no
clue....................you can point the finger anywhere you want.
YOUR post is from a book, my post is from experience dating back
BEFORE windows exsisted, so please, Your ignorance is only exceeded
by your desire to express it.

yawn ho hum


"Mike M" wrote in message
...
I speak from experience of working with Win Me and system restore
whereas
you are clearly speaking from your nether regions.
--
Mike Maltby MS-MVP



JAD wrote:

mike,,, quite simply YOUR the one who has no
clue....................you can point the finger anywhere you
want.
YOUR post is from a book, my post is from experience dating back
BEFORE windows exsisted, so please, Your ignorance is only
exceeded
by your desire to express it.