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Problem with accessing a partition



 
 
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  #61  
Old June 1st 10, 04:45 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Mon, 31 May 2010 14:15:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

3. If I understand properly, Win98 doesn't tolerate another primary active
partition on the system*.


I assume that by "active" you mean the bootable indicator is set (0x80).
You're right that multiple active partitions are a no-no (only primary
partitions can be active) but it is the code in the MBR that will catch
this. Anyway, it's a silly thing to do even if the O/S doesn't catch
it. However Win98 (and others) have no problems with multiple primary
partitions. In the volume list (e.g. in Explorer) the first primary
will appear, then all the logical volumes (in the extended partition),
and then all the other (max 2 I guess) primaries.

If you want to test this while the system is set to run XP, run ptedit
from a DOS floppy, change the first primary from 0x1C to 0x0C, then set
the boot flag in the first partition and reset the boot flag in the
second. When the PC boots it should start Win98 and the XP volume will
appear as drive F. If you later boot from the floppy again and flip the
boot flags the PC should start XP when booted. If this doesn't happen
then there is something strange with your setup and we'll have to check
further.

I'm in a hurry at the moment and haven't read all of your post. Also,
if the doomsayers are correct, this newsgroup might be dead and we'll
have to move to alt.windows98. I'll follow up later.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #62  
Old June 1st 10, 11:18 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Mon, 31 May 2010 14:15:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

2. Did PowerQuest/Symantec develop this partinfo.exe? If so, then it's a
part of the PM installation and I used its W98 version a week ago, but it
didn't report any problems


Yes, the DOS version has PowerQuest in it's list heading. Does the W98
version produce a list (stdout) that you can redirect to a file ? The
list might contain the details needed to resolve your problem.

- As far, as I understand, 4kB cluster you mentioned is the MS default size
for partitions up to 8GB, but you can still use bigger clusters. Am I right?
Originally, I thought, it was only a slack problem.


You're quite right here. Larger clusters might be beneficial for some
streaming applications but the slack space overhead will probably
increase. Smaller clusters than recommended work but file access is
slower and Win98 utilities that read the entire FAT don't work in my
experience.

5. The problem we are trying to resolve occurred when I extended WinXP
partition (with 16kB clusters) to 35 GB (over 32 GB). However, I didn't see
any problems with WinXP, but only with my partition D: (under Win98se). I do
hope that the cluster size wasn't a culprit in this case, although it should
increase to 32 kB.


I don't think the cluster size can be the problem because I doubt that
Win98 will even look at the volume when the partition type is 0x1C. But
I can't see how PM can safely move the extended partition when you
resize the WinXP partition so I wonder if it is using methods that
aren't apparent. This could have side effects that cause problems with
Win98. Shifting a partition up by 1GB (or 7GB) sounds risky to me.
Shifting the partition back sounds even harder to do safely. Changing
the cluster size is also very difficult without making a temporary copy
of all the data. Partition Magic is a very apt name.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #63  
Old June 1st 10, 11:18 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Mon, 31 May 2010 14:15:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

2. Did PowerQuest/Symantec develop this partinfo.exe? If so, then it's a
part of the PM installation and I used its W98 version a week ago, but it
didn't report any problems


Yes, the DOS version has PowerQuest in it's list heading. Does the W98
version produce a list (stdout) that you can redirect to a file ? The
list might contain the details needed to resolve your problem.

- As far, as I understand, 4kB cluster you mentioned is the MS default size
for partitions up to 8GB, but you can still use bigger clusters. Am I right?
Originally, I thought, it was only a slack problem.


You're quite right here. Larger clusters might be beneficial for some
streaming applications but the slack space overhead will probably
increase. Smaller clusters than recommended work but file access is
slower and Win98 utilities that read the entire FAT don't work in my
experience.

5. The problem we are trying to resolve occurred when I extended WinXP
partition (with 16kB clusters) to 35 GB (over 32 GB). However, I didn't see
any problems with WinXP, but only with my partition D: (under Win98se). I do
hope that the cluster size wasn't a culprit in this case, although it should
increase to 32 kB.


I don't think the cluster size can be the problem because I doubt that
Win98 will even look at the volume when the partition type is 0x1C. But
I can't see how PM can safely move the extended partition when you
resize the WinXP partition so I wonder if it is using methods that
aren't apparent. This could have side effects that cause problems with
Win98. Shifting a partition up by 1GB (or 7GB) sounds risky to me.
Shifting the partition back sounds even harder to do safely. Changing
the cluster size is also very difficult without making a temporary copy
of all the data. Partition Magic is a very apt name.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #64  
Old June 1st 10, 10:34 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

Thanks for your answers and ideas

Does the W98 version produce a list (stdout) that you can redirect to a file ?


partinfo.exe for Win98 displays a nice table on the screen, which can be
copied to any document. In addition, there are several options to choose
from, e.g. Save As, Copy to Clipboard and more. I saved the results, as the
..txt file. It's only 22K.

In case everything fails, wouldn't be reasonable to:
- copy all files from D: and E: to a USB stick
- delete the D: and E: partitions from my drive
- delete my Extended partition
- resize the WinXP partition, let's say to 45 GB
- create the Extended partition
- create the D: and E: partitions (this time a bit bigger)
- copy the files from the USB stick back to D: and E:

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2010 14:15:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

2. Did PowerQuest/Symantec develop this partinfo.exe? If so, then it's a
part of the PM installation and I used its W98 version a week ago, but it
didn't report any problems


Yes, the DOS version has PowerQuest in it's list heading. Does the W98
version produce a list (stdout) that you can redirect to a file ? The
list might contain the details needed to resolve your problem.

- As far, as I understand, 4kB cluster you mentioned is the MS default size
for partitions up to 8GB, but you can still use bigger clusters. Am I right?
Originally, I thought, it was only a slack problem.


You're quite right here. Larger clusters might be beneficial for some
streaming applications but the slack space overhead will probably
increase. Smaller clusters than recommended work but file access is
slower and Win98 utilities that read the entire FAT don't work in my
experience.

5. The problem we are trying to resolve occurred when I extended WinXP
partition (with 16kB clusters) to 35 GB (over 32 GB). However, I didn't see
any problems with WinXP, but only with my partition D: (under Win98se). I do
hope that the cluster size wasn't a culprit in this case, although it should
increase to 32 kB.


I don't think the cluster size can be the problem because I doubt that
Win98 will even look at the volume when the partition type is 0x1C. But
I can't see how PM can safely move the extended partition when you
resize the WinXP partition so I wonder if it is using methods that
aren't apparent. This could have side effects that cause problems with
Win98. Shifting a partition up by 1GB (or 7GB) sounds risky to me.
Shifting the partition back sounds even harder to do safely. Changing
the cluster size is also very difficult without making a temporary copy
of all the data. Partition Magic is a very apt name.

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #65  
Old June 1st 10, 10:34 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition


Thanks for your answers and ideas

Does the W98 version produce a list (stdout) that you can redirect to a file ?


partinfo.exe for Win98 displays a nice table on the screen, which can be
copied to any document. In addition, there are several options to choose
from, e.g. Save As, Copy to Clipboard and more. I saved the results, as the
..txt file. It's only 22K.

In case everything fails, wouldn't be reasonable to:
- copy all files from D: and E: to a USB stick
- delete the D: and E: partitions from my drive
- delete my Extended partition
- resize the WinXP partition, let's say to 45 GB
- create the Extended partition
- create the D: and E: partitions (this time a bit bigger)
- copy the files from the USB stick back to D: and E:

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2010 14:15:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

2. Did PowerQuest/Symantec develop this partinfo.exe? If so, then it's a
part of the PM installation and I used its W98 version a week ago, but it
didn't report any problems


Yes, the DOS version has PowerQuest in it's list heading. Does the W98
version produce a list (stdout) that you can redirect to a file ? The
list might contain the details needed to resolve your problem.

- As far, as I understand, 4kB cluster you mentioned is the MS default size
for partitions up to 8GB, but you can still use bigger clusters. Am I right?
Originally, I thought, it was only a slack problem.


You're quite right here. Larger clusters might be beneficial for some
streaming applications but the slack space overhead will probably
increase. Smaller clusters than recommended work but file access is
slower and Win98 utilities that read the entire FAT don't work in my
experience.

5. The problem we are trying to resolve occurred when I extended WinXP
partition (with 16kB clusters) to 35 GB (over 32 GB). However, I didn't see
any problems with WinXP, but only with my partition D: (under Win98se). I do
hope that the cluster size wasn't a culprit in this case, although it should
increase to 32 kB.


I don't think the cluster size can be the problem because I doubt that
Win98 will even look at the volume when the partition type is 0x1C. But
I can't see how PM can safely move the extended partition when you
resize the WinXP partition so I wonder if it is using methods that
aren't apparent. This could have side effects that cause problems with
Win98. Shifting a partition up by 1GB (or 7GB) sounds risky to me.
Shifting the partition back sounds even harder to do safely. Changing
the cluster size is also very difficult without making a temporary copy
of all the data. Partition Magic is a very apt name.

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #66  
Old June 2nd 10, 08:13 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 14:34:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

partinfo.exe for Win98 displays a nice table on the screen, which can be
copied to any document. In addition, there are several options to choose
from, e.g. Save As, Copy to Clipboard and more. I saved the results, as the
.txt file. It's only 22K.


This sounds good. I'd save the list(s) so you can check that your
primary partitions are still contiguous at the start of the disk. I
doubt that many people are concerned with partitions and disk layouts
nowadays (except when something goes wrong) so the subject is a bit of a
black art. It's quite simple really but just a bit alien.

In case everything fails, wouldn't be reasonable to:
- copy all files from D: and E: to a USB stick
- delete the D: and E: partitions from my drive
- delete my Extended partition
- resize the WinXP partition, let's say to 45 GB
- create the Extended partition
- create the D: and E: partitions (this time a bit bigger)
- copy the files from the USB stick back to D: and E:


Yes, I'd copy everything. The good thing about this is that you will
have a backup in case your disk crashes.

If you play with ptedit I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #67  
Old June 2nd 10, 08:13 AM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 14:34:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

partinfo.exe for Win98 displays a nice table on the screen, which can be
copied to any document. In addition, there are several options to choose
from, e.g. Save As, Copy to Clipboard and more. I saved the results, as the
.txt file. It's only 22K.


This sounds good. I'd save the list(s) so you can check that your
primary partitions are still contiguous at the start of the disk. I
doubt that many people are concerned with partitions and disk layouts
nowadays (except when something goes wrong) so the subject is a bit of a
black art. It's quite simple really but just a bit alien.

In case everything fails, wouldn't be reasonable to:
- copy all files from D: and E: to a USB stick
- delete the D: and E: partitions from my drive
- delete my Extended partition
- resize the WinXP partition, let's say to 45 GB
- create the Extended partition
- create the D: and E: partitions (this time a bit bigger)
- copy the files from the USB stick back to D: and E:


Yes, I'd copy everything. The good thing about this is that you will
have a backup in case your disk crashes.

If you play with ptedit I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

Cheers,
--
Steven
  #68  
Old June 2nd 10, 12:30 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

Thanks again for your suggestions

1. My primary partitions are contiguous, which I checked, but I'm confused
about my logical partitions, esp. about the locations of EPBRs. I just don't
feel it. I display them below for your opinion

Vol. PartType Status PartSect # StartSect TotalSects
Ext.X Pri 0 2 93,675,015
39,776,940
EPBR Log None -- 93,675,015
24,177,825
D: FAT32 Log 93,675,015 0 93,675,078 24,177,762
EPBR Log 93,675,015 1 117,852,840
15,599,115
E: FAT32 Log 117,852,840 0 117,852,903 15,599,052

Disk Geometry Info: Cyl: 19457, Head: 255, Sect/Track: 63

2. Yes, I'd copy everything. The good thing about this is that you will have a backup in case your disk crashes


You're completely right about the backup, but I rather meant remaking of my
logical partitions from scratch (without necessity to resize anything, i.e.
by taking the necessary space directly from the Unallocated partition -
adjacent to them) and then copying back all files from the USB stick. I hope
that then I should be free of any artifacts of the previous moving and
resizing operations, if any. Am I right?

3. As far as I remember, PowerQuest developed own methods of performing
various operations on partitions, with intelligent double-checking, and they
never disclosed them to the public. Instead, they have just patented them.
You can see below some of the numbers of the patents involved that they refer
to in their manual.
"This product and/or its use may be covered by one or more of the following
patents: 5,675,769; 5,706,472; 5,930,831; 6,088,778; 6,108,697; 6,108,759;
6,173,291; 6,178,487; 6,178,503; 6,185,575; 6,185,666; 6,253,300; 6,330,653;
and 6,377,958. Additional patents may be pending."

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 14:34:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

partinfo.exe for Win98 displays a nice table on the screen, which can be
copied to any document. In addition, there are several options to choose
from, e.g. Save As, Copy to Clipboard and more. I saved the results, as the
.txt file. It's only 22K.


This sounds good. I'd save the list(s) so you can check that your
primary partitions are still contiguous at the start of the disk. I
doubt that many people are concerned with partitions and disk layouts
nowadays (except when something goes wrong) so the subject is a bit of a
black art. It's quite simple really but just a bit alien.

In case everything fails, wouldn't be reasonable to:
- copy all files from D: and E: to a USB stick
- delete the D: and E: partitions from my drive
- delete my Extended partition
- resize the WinXP partition, let's say to 45 GB
- create the Extended partition
- create the D: and E: partitions (this time a bit bigger)
- copy the files from the USB stick back to D: and E:


Yes, I'd copy everything. The good thing about this is that you will
have a backup in case your disk crashes.

If you play with ptedit I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #69  
Old June 2nd 10, 12:30 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Andrew[_2_]
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 35
Default Problem with accessing a partition

Thanks again for your suggestions

1. My primary partitions are contiguous, which I checked, but I'm confused
about my logical partitions, esp. about the locations of EPBRs. I just don't
feel it. I display them below for your opinion

Vol. PartType Status PartSect # StartSect TotalSects
Ext.X Pri 0 2 93,675,015
39,776,940
EPBR Log None -- 93,675,015
24,177,825
D: FAT32 Log 93,675,015 0 93,675,078 24,177,762
EPBR Log 93,675,015 1 117,852,840
15,599,115
E: FAT32 Log 117,852,840 0 117,852,903 15,599,052

Disk Geometry Info: Cyl: 19457, Head: 255, Sect/Track: 63

2. Yes, I'd copy everything. The good thing about this is that you will have a backup in case your disk crashes


You're completely right about the backup, but I rather meant remaking of my
logical partitions from scratch (without necessity to resize anything, i.e.
by taking the necessary space directly from the Unallocated partition -
adjacent to them) and then copying back all files from the USB stick. I hope
that then I should be free of any artifacts of the previous moving and
resizing operations, if any. Am I right?

3. As far as I remember, PowerQuest developed own methods of performing
various operations on partitions, with intelligent double-checking, and they
never disclosed them to the public. Instead, they have just patented them.
You can see below some of the numbers of the patents involved that they refer
to in their manual.
"This product and/or its use may be covered by one or more of the following
patents: 5,675,769; 5,706,472; 5,930,831; 6,088,778; 6,108,697; 6,108,759;
6,173,291; 6,178,487; 6,178,503; 6,185,575; 6,185,666; 6,253,300; 6,330,653;
and 6,377,958. Additional patents may be pending."

Regards,
Andrew


"Steven Saunderson" wrote:

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 14:34:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

partinfo.exe for Win98 displays a nice table on the screen, which can be
copied to any document. In addition, there are several options to choose
from, e.g. Save As, Copy to Clipboard and more. I saved the results, as the
.txt file. It's only 22K.


This sounds good. I'd save the list(s) so you can check that your
primary partitions are still contiguous at the start of the disk. I
doubt that many people are concerned with partitions and disk layouts
nowadays (except when something goes wrong) so the subject is a bit of a
black art. It's quite simple really but just a bit alien.

In case everything fails, wouldn't be reasonable to:
- copy all files from D: and E: to a USB stick
- delete the D: and E: partitions from my drive
- delete my Extended partition
- resize the WinXP partition, let's say to 45 GB
- create the Extended partition
- create the D: and E: partitions (this time a bit bigger)
- copy the files from the USB stick back to D: and E:


Yes, I'd copy everything. The good thing about this is that you will
have a backup in case your disk crashes.

If you play with ptedit I'll be interested to hear how it goes.

Cheers,
--
Steven
.

  #70  
Old June 2nd 10, 11:27 PM posted to microsoft.public.win98.disks.general
Steven Saunderson
External Usenet User
 
Posts: 37
Default Problem with accessing a partition

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 04:30:01 -0700, Andrew
wrote:

1. My primary partitions are contiguous, which I checked, but I'm confused
about my logical partitions, esp. about the locations of EPBRs.


Vol. PartType Status PartSect # StartSect TotalSects

Ext.X Pri 0 2 93,675,015 39,776,940
EPBR Log None -- 93,675,015 24,177,825

D: FAT32 Log 93,675,015 0 93,675,078 24,177,762
EPBR Log 93,675,015 1 117,852,840 15,599,115

E: FAT32 Log 117,852,840 0 117,852,903 15,599,052

Everything looks fine. The extended partition starts at about 45GB and
is about 20GB (the first list line shows values from entry #2 in the
MBR; entries #0 and #1 will describe your primary partitions).

The second line is generated by PartInfo rather than showing part of any
disk record. I don't think the size of the first chunk of the chain is
explicitly recorded anywhere.

The third and fourth lines list the two entries in the first EPBR. This
is the start of the chain in the extended partition. The FAT32 line
shows that the D: volume starts 63 sectors later and is 24M sectors
long. The EPBR line shows that the next part of the chain starts at
sector 117M and is 15M sectors long.

The last line lists the next EPBR in the chain. This EPBR has only one
entry. The entry says the E: volume starts 63 sectors later and is 15M
sectors long. Because this is the end of the chain there is no "EPBR"
line which points along the chain.

"EPBR" in this list actually means a type 0x05 entry in a partition
table entry rather than Extended Partition Boot Record.

I note your comment about the PowerQuest patents. PM is probably more
sophisticated than most people realise. I don't know why it changes
your partitions from 0x0C back to 0x0B. Perhaps my understanding of the
codes is outdated or incorrect. But I still think that standard Win98se
(with IO.SYS dated 2001-12-01) should access the disk correctly if all
FAT32 volumes are type 0x0C. I've heard that IO.SYS regards type 0x0B
as type 0x0C if in the extended partition and this starts with 0x0F. If
this is true and the code that effects this re-interpretation is the
cause of your problem then setting the volumes to 0x0C should fix the
problem.

Cheers,
--
Steven
 




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