Getting NTFS access in DOS of an external USB drive?

In message , glee
writes:
wrote in message
.. .
[]
That's not losing data? Because you were not doing anything but surfing
the net when the power outage or system crash occurred, you've been
lucky to only lose data in the browser cache...at least that's all you
are aware you've lost. And in the case of shutting off because of a
lock-up, that isn't a power failure, that's a hard reset due to a crash
in the system.....something you would see a lot less of with a newer OS
than Win98. Yes, they do occur with newer systems too, but with the
NTFS file system, you have redundancy and built-in tools (part of the
file system) to prevent a lot of the data loss and file fragments you
see with FAT/FAT32.

NTFS uses transaction logging and cluster remapping to help preserve

I sense that you _do_ know what that's all about; however, either it
_is_ Very Complicated, or nobody seems willing to explain it in words a
simple thanatoid or myself can understand.

data in these situations, and when a bad sector on the drive is
encountered. FAT uses a form of cluster remapping, but only when the
volume is initially formatted. If a bad sector occurs on a FAT volume
after it is formatted, data stored within the associated cluster can be
permanently lost. NTFS handles cluster remapping dynamically and
continuously.

If a cluster goes bad, the only way I can see of not losing the data
that's in it is to be storing all your data in two or more places (OK,
you can do some clever things with checksums, but on the whole ...); I
somehow don't think NTFS does that, since I've not heard that it needs
twice as much space.
[]
You and thanatoid keep repeating this ridiculous statement that the NTFS
file system is going to 'eat your data'. You have no basis for the
statement except your ignorance of the file system. FAT file systems
are far more likely to 'eat you data'. Either system can get into a

In theory, perhaps; whether in practice, we remain unconvinced.

situation where a recovery boot disk is needed to fix problems or
recover data. Such tools are readily available for both file systems.

But that for FAT will fit on a floppy (or at least, an OS that can read
FAT will). If NTFS is so great, why does it need such a big driver that
it won't?

The fact that you have only investigated or used the tools for FAT
systems doesn't change the fact that equally effective tools are
available for NTFS. Your suffer from "file system xenophobia".

I will admit to that to some extent.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

The trouble with life in the fast lane is that you get to the other end in an
awful hurry. -John Jensen

On 6/18/2010 16:56, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , glee
writes:
wrote in message
...
[]
That's not losing data? Because you were not doing anything but surfing
the net when the power outage or system crash occurred, you've been
lucky to only lose data in the browser cache...at least that's all you
are aware you've lost. And in the case of shutting off because of a
lock-up, that isn't a power failure, that's a hard reset due to a crash
in the system.....something you would see a lot less of with a newer OS
than Win98. Yes, they do occur with newer systems too, but with the
NTFS file system, you have redundancy and built-in tools (part of the
file system) to prevent a lot of the data loss and file fragments you
see with FAT/FAT32.

NTFS uses transaction logging and cluster remapping to help preserve

I sense that you _do_ know what that's all about; however, either it
_is_ Very Complicated, or nobody seems willing to explain it in words a
simple thanatoid or myself can understand.

From what I understand it is something like this..

A process initiates a change to a file. (save, delete, extend, truncate,
rename, (etc))
NTFS logs the needed "transactions" to carry out the task.
NTFS caches the data and/or meta-data that will be affected by the change.
NTFS writes the new data.
NTFS flags that the transactions are complete and flushes the cache.

During the boot process the NTFS driver checks the log for any
transaction that did not complete. If any are found it will roll back
the file and/or meta-data.

You may lose the changes you made to your file, but at least the file
will not be corrupt.

On 6/18/2010 16:56, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , glee
writes:
wrote in message
...
[]
That's not losing data? Because you were not doing anything but surfing
the net when the power outage or system crash occurred, you've been
lucky to only lose data in the browser cache...at least that's all you
are aware you've lost. And in the case of shutting off because of a
lock-up, that isn't a power failure, that's a hard reset due to a crash
in the system.....something you would see a lot less of with a newer OS
than Win98. Yes, they do occur with newer systems too, but with the
NTFS file system, you have redundancy and built-in tools (part of the
file system) to prevent a lot of the data loss and file fragments you
see with FAT/FAT32.

NTFS uses transaction logging and cluster remapping to help preserve

I sense that you _do_ know what that's all about; however, either it
_is_ Very Complicated, or nobody seems willing to explain it in words a
simple thanatoid or myself can understand.

From what I understand it is something like this..

A process initiates a change to a file. (save, delete, extend, truncate,
rename, (etc))
NTFS logs the needed "transactions" to carry out the task.
NTFS caches the data and/or meta-data that will be affected by the change.
NTFS writes the new data.
NTFS flags that the transactions are complete and flushes the cache.

During the boot process the NTFS driver checks the log for any
transaction that did not complete. If any are found it will roll back
the file and/or meta-data.

You may lose the changes you made to your file, but at least the file
will not be corrupt.

In message , Bill Blanton
writes:
On 6/18/2010 16:56, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , glee
writes:
wrote in message
...
[]
That's not losing data? Because you were not doing anything but surfing
the net when the power outage or system crash occurred, you've been
lucky to only lose data in the browser cache...at least that's all you
are aware you've lost. And in the case of shutting off because of a
lock-up, that isn't a power failure, that's a hard reset due to a crash
in the system.....something you would see a lot less of with a newer OS
than Win98. Yes, they do occur with newer systems too, but with the
NTFS file system, you have redundancy and built-in tools (part of the
file system) to prevent a lot of the data loss and file fragments you
see with FAT/FAT32.

NTFS uses transaction logging and cluster remapping to help preserve

I sense that you _do_ know what that's all about; however, either it
_is_ Very Complicated, or nobody seems willing to explain it in words a
simple thanatoid or myself can understand.

From what I understand it is something like this..

A process initiates a change to a file. (save, delete, extend,
truncate, rename, (etc))
NTFS logs the needed "transactions" to carry out the task.
NTFS caches the data and/or meta-data that will be affected by the change.
NTFS writes the new data.
NTFS flags that the transactions are complete and flushes the cache.

During the boot process the NTFS driver checks the log for any
transaction that did not complete. If any are found it will roll back
the file and/or meta-data.

You may lose the changes you made to your file, but at least the file
will not be corrupt.


Thanks - I think I understood that.

Though I still doubt there are many situations where actual file
corruption is the culprit.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

Real programmers don't document. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to
understand.

In message , Bill Blanton
writes:
On 6/18/2010 16:56, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , glee
writes:
wrote in message
...
[]
That's not losing data? Because you were not doing anything but surfing
the net when the power outage or system crash occurred, you've been
lucky to only lose data in the browser cache...at least that's all you
are aware you've lost. And in the case of shutting off because of a
lock-up, that isn't a power failure, that's a hard reset due to a crash
in the system.....something you would see a lot less of with a newer OS
than Win98. Yes, they do occur with newer systems too, but with the
NTFS file system, you have redundancy and built-in tools (part of the
file system) to prevent a lot of the data loss and file fragments you
see with FAT/FAT32.

NTFS uses transaction logging and cluster remapping to help preserve

I sense that you _do_ know what that's all about; however, either it
_is_ Very Complicated, or nobody seems willing to explain it in words a
simple thanatoid or myself can understand.

From what I understand it is something like this..

A process initiates a change to a file. (save, delete, extend,
truncate, rename, (etc))
NTFS logs the needed "transactions" to carry out the task.
NTFS caches the data and/or meta-data that will be affected by the change.
NTFS writes the new data.
NTFS flags that the transactions are complete and flushes the cache.

During the boot process the NTFS driver checks the log for any
transaction that did not complete. If any are found it will roll back
the file and/or meta-data.

You may lose the changes you made to your file, but at least the file
will not be corrupt.


Thanks - I think I understood that.

Though I still doubt there are many situations where actual file
corruption is the culprit.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **

Real programmers don't document. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to
understand.

On 6/23/2010 15:49, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Bill Blanton
writes:
On 6/18/2010 16:56, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , glee
writes:
wrote in message
...
[]
That's not losing data? Because you were not doing anything but surfing
the net when the power outage or system crash occurred, you've been
lucky to only lose data in the browser cache...at least that's all you
are aware you've lost. And in the case of shutting off because of a
lock-up, that isn't a power failure, that's a hard reset due to a crash
in the system.....something you would see a lot less of with a newer OS
than Win98. Yes, they do occur with newer systems too, but with the
NTFS file system, you have redundancy and built-in tools (part of the
file system) to prevent a lot of the data loss and file fragments you
see with FAT/FAT32.

NTFS uses transaction logging and cluster remapping to help preserve

I sense that you _do_ know what that's all about; however, either it
_is_ Very Complicated, or nobody seems willing to explain it in words a
simple thanatoid or myself can understand.

From what I understand it is something like this..

A process initiates a change to a file. (save, delete, extend,
truncate, rename, (etc))
NTFS logs the needed "transactions" to carry out the task.
NTFS caches the data and/or meta-data that will be affected by the
change.
NTFS writes the new data.
NTFS flags that the transactions are complete and flushes the cache.

During the boot process the NTFS driver checks the log for any
transaction that did not complete. If any are found it will roll back
the file and/or meta-data.

You may lose the changes you made to your file, but at least the file
will not be corrupt.


Thanks - I think I understood that.

Though I still doubt there are many situations where actual file
corruption is the culprit.

If you mean bad sectors developing where you have data, then no,
transaction logging won't do anything for that.

On 6/23/2010 15:49, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Bill Blanton
writes:
On 6/18/2010 16:56, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , glee
writes:
wrote in message
...
[]
That's not losing data? Because you were not doing anything but surfing
the net when the power outage or system crash occurred, you've been
lucky to only lose data in the browser cache...at least that's all you
are aware you've lost. And in the case of shutting off because of a
lock-up, that isn't a power failure, that's a hard reset due to a crash
in the system.....something you would see a lot less of with a newer OS
than Win98. Yes, they do occur with newer systems too, but with the
NTFS file system, you have redundancy and built-in tools (part of the
file system) to prevent a lot of the data loss and file fragments you
see with FAT/FAT32.

NTFS uses transaction logging and cluster remapping to help preserve

I sense that you _do_ know what that's all about; however, either it
_is_ Very Complicated, or nobody seems willing to explain it in words a
simple thanatoid or myself can understand.

From what I understand it is something like this..

A process initiates a change to a file. (save, delete, extend,
truncate, rename, (etc))
NTFS logs the needed "transactions" to carry out the task.
NTFS caches the data and/or meta-data that will be affected by the
change.
NTFS writes the new data.
NTFS flags that the transactions are complete and flushes the cache.

During the boot process the NTFS driver checks the log for any
transaction that did not complete. If any are found it will roll back
the file and/or meta-data.

You may lose the changes you made to your file, but at least the file
will not be corrupt.


Thanks - I think I understood that.

Though I still doubt there are many situations where actual file
corruption is the culprit.

If you mean bad sectors developing where you have data, then no,
transaction logging won't do anything for that.