Windows ME compared to Windows 98SE

budgie wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:50:54 -0600, Dan wrote:

snip

Chris, what about the compatibility options of 98SE compared to ME in
the area of supporting older titles such as Space which is a Windows 3.1
program that will run on 98SE but not on XP even with compatibility
mode. The option of a boot disk in ME is a consideration and sometimes
a user even needs to use a boot disk for older MS-DOS games in 98SE.
What do you think?

Dan, which "Space" are you referring to? I have Broderbund's "Discover Space"
(often called just "Space") from my Wfwg days, and cannot get it stable under
98SE. It always seems to lock up in certain functions, which is a pity.

The cd is at the school where I work and I will post back later to let
you know. It actually belongs to another teacher who had me install it
on 98SE and she said it did not work on XP and her husband who
apparently knows computers had tried it at home on XP.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:50:54 -0600, Dan wrote:

Chris, what about the compatibility options of 98SE compared to ME in
the area of supporting older titles such as Space which is a Windows 3.1
program that will run on 98SE but not on XP even with compatibility
mode. The option of a boot disk in ME is a consideration and sometimes
a user even needs to use a boot disk for older MS-DOS games in 98SE.

What do you think?

I think Win98SE and WinME will be fairly similar in terms of how well
they will run most software of that era, and older - in that both have
similar access to hardware, etc. in keeping with the Win9x design
brief. OTOH, NT (from which XP is derived) was never designed to
support DOS and Win3.x apps as effectively as required in Win9x.

Having said that, certain DOS and perhaps Win3.x apps may need drivers
and TSRs set up under the OS, and that isn't possible in WinME. Also,
it's easier to optimize a HD-based DOS mode for "difficult" DOS apps
in Win98SE (the facility is built in) than WinME. In fact, unless you
do a bit of custom work, WinME lacks HD-based DOS mode altogether.

Some DOS functionality was eroded even in the transition from Win95 to
Win98, e.g. old commands like Tree were dropped in Win98.

IMO, the best MS-DOS would be the DOS mode from either Win98 varient,
or from Win95 SR2. Win98 has the advantage that the EBD it builds
includes generic CD-ROM support, which the Win95s lack.


So it comes down to a trade-off; is better DOS support more important
to you than native support for USB storage devices?



------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
------------ ----- --- -- - - - -

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:29:32 +0800, budgie wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:50:54 -0600, Dan wrote:

Chris, what about the compatibility options of 98SE compared to ME in
the area of supporting older titles such as Space which is a Windows 3.1
program that will run on 98SE but not on XP even with compatibility
mode. The option of a boot disk in ME is a consideration and sometimes
a user even needs to use a boot disk for older MS-DOS games in 98SE.

You should rarely, if ever, need a boot diskette to run any games -
the only ones I can think of that are exceptions are some that are
bound to particular DOS versions (e.g. one that won't run on anything
beyond MS-DOS 3.2) or those that are locked into "protected" boot
diskettes, such as the old text Hitchiker's Guide adventure.

However, you would need to properly optimize the HD-based DOS mode.

In Win95/98, this is easy...

1) Shutdown to MS-DOS mode in order to spawn "Exit to DOS.pif"

2) Set the Properties of this to "Specify a new..."

3) Shutdown to MS-DOS mode; now PC should reboot to get there

4) While in this MS-DOS mode, save these as active files...

C:\CONFIG.SYS

paste1------ --- -- - - - -
DOS=SINGLE

[Menu]
MenuItem=Def,Exclusive DOS mode; default startup
MenuItem=EMS,Exclusive DOS mode; with EMS support
MenuItem=Max,Exclusive DOS mode; maximum DPMS memory
MenuItem=Lean,Exclusive DOS mode; lean, no SmartDrv or Emm386
MenuItem=Debug,Exclusive DOS mode; debug, no file loads or writes
MenuDefault=Def,10

[NoEMS]
Device=C:\Windows\HiMem.sys
DeviceHigh=C:\Windows\Emm386.exe NoEMS
DOS=High,UMB

[YesEMS]
Device=C:\Windows\HiMem.sys
DeviceHigh=C:\Windows\Emm386.exe RAM
DOS=High,UMB

[HiMem]
Device=C:\Windows\HiMem.sys
DOS=High

[CD]
DeviceHigh=C:\Windows\Command\EBD\OakCDROM.sys /D:CD1

[Def]
Include NoEMS
Include CD

[EMS]
Include YesEMS
Include CD

[Max]
Include NoEMS
Include CD

[Lean]
Include HiMem
Include CD

[Debug]
DOS=NoAuto

/paste1------ --- -- - - - -


paste2------ --- -- - - - -
@ECHO OFF

Set winbootdir=C:\Windows
Set Path=C:\Some\Fake\Path
Set Path=%winbootdir%;%winbootdir%\Command;C:\Tools

Set Blaster=A220 I5 D1
Set Tmp=%winbootdir%\Temp
Set Temp=%Tmp%
Set Prompt=[%Config%] $p$g

GoTo %Config%

ef
Set Prompt=$p$g
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH SmartDrv /X
LH Mouse
LH DOSKey /Insert
GoTo End

:EMS
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH SmartDrv /X
LH Mouse
LH DOSKey /Insert
GoTo End

:Max
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH SmartDrv /X 128
LH Mouse
GoTo End

:Lean
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH Mouse
GoTo End

ebug
Echo.
Echo Debug mode; no file loads or writes
GoTo End

:End
Echo.
Echo This is exclusive DOS mode, via "Exit to DOS.pif"
Echo The PC will stay in this mod, even after power off or reset.
Echo To return to Windows, use the EXIT command (do not use "win")
Echo.
REM
REM The following lines have been created by Windows. Do not modify
them.
REM
C:
CD C:\WINDOWS
CALL C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM
C:\WINDOWS\WIN.COM /WX

/paste2------ --- -- - - - -

(You'd have to edit the above if your paths differ, e.g. if Windows is
not installed in C:\Windows, and the OakCDROM.SYS is 98-specific)

5) ...then reset the PC to put them into effect

6) Repeat the edits, saves and resets until happy

7) When happy, enter the EXIT command to build into "Exit to DOS.pif"

Once this is done, you'd have a menu that should cater for the needs
of most DOS apps - i.e. those that need max RAM, or that crash on
Emm386, or that require a totally clean DOS boot.

Dan, which "Space" are you referring to? I have Broderbund's "Discover Space"
(often called just "Space") from my Wfwg days, and cannot get it stable under
98SE. It always seems to lock up in certain functions, which is a pity.

There's more to running old apps than the OS alone - some of these old
apps can't cope with today's high speeds, HD and RAM capacities, FAT32
file system, or the skewed relative speed of various CPU instructions
that have developed as CPU design has evolved.



--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
Hello DOS mode my old friend
I've come to hack with you again
--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:50:54 -0600, Dan wrote:

Chris, what about the compatibility options of 98SE compared to ME in
the area of supporting older titles such as Space which is a Windows 3.1
program that will run on 98SE but not on XP even with compatibility
mode. The option of a boot disk in ME is a consideration and sometimes
a user even needs to use a boot disk for older MS-DOS games in 98SE.

What do you think?

I think Win98SE and WinME will be fairly similar in terms of how well
they will run most software of that era, and older - in that both have
similar access to hardware, etc. in keeping with the Win9x design
brief. OTOH, NT (from which XP is derived) was never designed to
support DOS and Win3.x apps as effectively as required in Win9x.

Having said that, certain DOS and perhaps Win3.x apps may need drivers
and TSRs set up under the OS, and that isn't possible in WinME. Also,
it's easier to optimize a HD-based DOS mode for "difficult" DOS apps
in Win98SE (the facility is built in) than WinME. In fact, unless you
do a bit of custom work, WinME lacks HD-based DOS mode altogether.

Some DOS functionality was eroded even in the transition from Win95 to
Win98, e.g. old commands like Tree were dropped in Win98.

IMO, the best MS-DOS would be the DOS mode from either Win98 varient,
or from Win95 SR2. Win98 has the advantage that the EBD it builds
includes generic CD-ROM support, which the Win95s lack.

So it comes down to a trade-off; is better DOS support more important
to you than native support for USB storage devices?

Probably so, for me (and not for games, but as a readily available,
fallback, underlying, operating system, for example.

Just FYI - I tend to play around with some new program installations, and
just to cover all bets, often end up restoring a previous registry backup
JUST TO BE SURE everything (well ok, most everything - most of the time) is
back to normal (having also run SFC and checking out any file changes).
Better to be safe than sorry with some of these programs! And, on a
handful of occasions, I've have found it necessary to fall back to true DOS
to do a clean windows reinstallation.

As far as the USB issue is concerned, we can often (usually?) get the
necessary drivers for Win98SE from the peripheral manufacturer, AFAIK.

Bill in Co. wrote:
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:50:54 -0600, Dan wrote:

Chris, what about the compatibility options of 98SE compared to ME in
the area of supporting older titles such as Space which is a Windows 3.1
program that will run on 98SE but not on XP even with compatibility
mode. The option of a boot disk in ME is a consideration and sometimes
a user even needs to use a boot disk for older MS-DOS games in 98SE.
What do you think?
I think Win98SE and WinME will be fairly similar in terms of how well
they will run most software of that era, and older - in that both have
similar access to hardware, etc. in keeping with the Win9x design
brief. OTOH, NT (from which XP is derived) was never designed to
support DOS and Win3.x apps as effectively as required in Win9x.

Having said that, certain DOS and perhaps Win3.x apps may need drivers
and TSRs set up under the OS, and that isn't possible in WinME. Also,
it's easier to optimize a HD-based DOS mode for "difficult" DOS apps
in Win98SE (the facility is built in) than WinME. In fact, unless you
do a bit of custom work, WinME lacks HD-based DOS mode altogether.

Some DOS functionality was eroded even in the transition from Win95 to
Win98, e.g. old commands like Tree were dropped in Win98.

IMO, the best MS-DOS would be the DOS mode from either Win98 varient,
or from Win95 SR2. Win98 has the advantage that the EBD it builds
includes generic CD-ROM support, which the Win95s lack.

So it comes down to a trade-off; is better DOS support more important
to you than native support for USB storage devices?

Probably so, for me (and not for games, but as a readily available,
fallback, underlying, operating system, for example.

Just FYI - I tend to play around with some new program installations, and
just to cover all bets, often end up restoring a previous registry backup
JUST TO BE SURE everything (well ok, most everything - most of the time) is
back to normal (having also run SFC and checking out any file changes).
Better to be safe than sorry with some of these programs! And, on a
handful of occasions, I've have found it necessary to fall back to true DOS
to do a clean windows reinstallation.

As far as the USB issue is concerned, we can often (usually?) get the
necessary drivers for Win98SE from the peripheral manufacturer, AFAIK.



Yes, USB 2.0 drivers usually are available for the different devices
from company websites for 98SE.

N. Miller wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:41:48 -0600, Dan wrote:

N. Miller wrote:

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:20:41 -0600, Dan wrote:

Thanks Mike. According to this article, Windows 98(SE) is used more
than ME.

I don't need an article to tell me that MS Internet Explorer is use by
more people than Mozilla Firefox.

I also don't need to follow the crowd. Most people stick with MSIE due
to inertia; it is a part of the Windows environment. I still prefer
Firefox.

Popularity is not always an indicator of what is best.

Huh, I use and like Mozilla Firefox more than IE due to 256 bit+
encryption vs. only 128 bit encryption with Internet Explorer and
plugins such as the Geotrust plugin that shows which sites are safe when
you search using Mozilla Firefox at the Google website. also and we
were discussing 98SE and ME.

Same issue applies; which is more popular, and why. I could have
expressed it as a comparison between any MS OS and Linux, or Unix, or
Mac OSX, or..., or...

Whatever two items are under comparison, popularity usually has more to
do with promotion than quality. Promote a lesser quality (VHS v.
BetaMax), and the lower quality usually wins out (VHS).


Interesting points that you bring up and thanks for the comparison.

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:29:32 +0800, budgie wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:50:54 -0600, Dan wrote:

Chris, what about the compatibility options of 98SE compared to ME in
the area of supporting older titles such as Space which is a Windows 3.1
program that will run on 98SE but not on XP even with compatibility
mode. The option of a boot disk in ME is a consideration and sometimes
a user even needs to use a boot disk for older MS-DOS games in 98SE.

You should rarely, if ever, need a boot diskette to run any games -
the only ones I can think of that are exceptions are some that are
bound to particular DOS versions (e.g. one that won't run on anything
beyond MS-DOS 3.2) or those that are locked into "protected" boot
diskettes, such as the old text Hitchiker's Guide adventure.

However, you would need to properly optimize the HD-based DOS mode.

In Win95/98, this is easy...

1) Shutdown to MS-DOS mode in order to spawn "Exit to DOS.pif"

2) Set the Properties of this to "Specify a new..."

3) Shutdown to MS-DOS mode; now PC should reboot to get there

4) While in this MS-DOS mode, save these as active files...

C:\CONFIG.SYS

paste1------ --- -- - - - -
DOS=SINGLE

[Menu]
MenuItem=Def,Exclusive DOS mode; default startup
MenuItem=EMS,Exclusive DOS mode; with EMS support
MenuItem=Max,Exclusive DOS mode; maximum DPMS memory
MenuItem=Lean,Exclusive DOS mode; lean, no SmartDrv or Emm386
MenuItem=Debug,Exclusive DOS mode; debug, no file loads or writes
MenuDefault=Def,10

[NoEMS]
Device=C:\Windows\HiMem.sys
DeviceHigh=C:\Windows\Emm386.exe NoEMS
DOS=High,UMB

[YesEMS]
Device=C:\Windows\HiMem.sys
DeviceHigh=C:\Windows\Emm386.exe RAM
DOS=High,UMB

[HiMem]
Device=C:\Windows\HiMem.sys
DOS=High

[CD]
DeviceHigh=C:\Windows\Command\EBD\OakCDROM.sys /D:CD1

[Def]
Include NoEMS
Include CD

[EMS]
Include YesEMS
Include CD

[Max]
Include NoEMS
Include CD

[Lean]
Include HiMem
Include CD

[Debug]
DOS=NoAuto

/paste1------ --- -- - - - -


paste2------ --- -- - - - -
@ECHO OFF

Set winbootdir=C:\Windows
Set Path=C:\Some\Fake\Path
Set Path=%winbootdir%;%winbootdir%\Command;C:\Tools

Set Blaster=A220 I5 D1
Set Tmp=%winbootdir%\Temp
Set Temp=%Tmp%
Set Prompt=[%Config%] $p$g

GoTo %Config%

ef
Set Prompt=$p$g
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH SmartDrv /X
LH Mouse
LH DOSKey /Insert
GoTo End

:EMS
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH SmartDrv /X
LH Mouse
LH DOSKey /Insert
GoTo End

:Max
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH SmartDrv /X 128
LH Mouse
GoTo End

:Lean
LH MSCDEx /D:CD1
LH Mouse
GoTo End

ebug
Echo.
Echo Debug mode; no file loads or writes
GoTo End

:End
Echo.
Echo This is exclusive DOS mode, via "Exit to DOS.pif"
Echo The PC will stay in this mod, even after power off or reset.
Echo To return to Windows, use the EXIT command (do not use "win")
Echo.
REM
REM The following lines have been created by Windows. Do not modify
them.
REM
C:
CD C:\WINDOWS
CALL C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM
C:\WINDOWS\WIN.COM /WX

/paste2------ --- -- - - - -

(You'd have to edit the above if your paths differ, e.g. if Windows is
not installed in C:\Windows, and the OakCDROM.SYS is 98-specific)

5) ...then reset the PC to put them into effect

6) Repeat the edits, saves and resets until happy

7) When happy, enter the EXIT command to build into "Exit to DOS.pif"

Once this is done, you'd have a menu that should cater for the needs
of most DOS apps - i.e. those that need max RAM, or that crash on
Emm386, or that require a totally clean DOS boot.

Dan, which "Space" are you referring to? I have Broderbund's "Discover Space"
(often called just "Space") from my Wfwg days, and cannot get it stable under
98SE. It always seems to lock up in certain functions, which is a pity.

There's more to running old apps than the OS alone - some of these old
apps can't cope with today's high speeds, HD and RAM capacities, FAT32
file system, or the skewed relative speed of various CPU instructions
that have developed as CPU design has evolved.



--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
Hello DOS mode my old friend
I've come to hack with you again
--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -

Reply, thank you so much for your detailed post, Chris. I will have to
study and work on the suggested solution when I have a good bloc of time
free to implement this solution.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:23:40 -0600, "Bill in Co."

As far as the USB issue is concerned, we can often (usually?) get the
necessary drivers for Win98SE from the peripheral manufacturer, AFAIK.

The difference is that with Win98xx, each flash drive has to have its
own driver. Not all drives do have Win98SE or Win98 drivers,
including web site, and often it's hard to find which site, which
model, and even which serial number range.

One way to beat that is to use a card reader and SD cards instead of
USB flash drives. The card reader has one set of drivers, and can
then read as many SD cards as you like, of any brand.

There are other advantages, too...
- Bart CDR boot will see SD hot-swap card changes OK
- SD cards are faster and less prone to delayed-write corruption
- SD cards have a hardware write-protect switch
- you can use the same cards in cameras that use SD cards
- not much price or max-capacity differences between SD and flash




------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
------------ ----- --- -- - - - -

Oh, I have a half dozen BSOD's a day, and a dozen reboots or more, and showing
the desktop causes the computer to hang for a MINUTE or more and sometimes needs
a reboot because 60 icons won't refresh (Explorer not responding)

This is every day!

Win 98SE has been a very, very tough school of hard knocks for me right off the
bat, and going on 6 years straight.

Win Me just had resource issues after adding Norton System Works 2005 (with AV)
to the mix. Couldn't print from Word with a web page open because I'd run out of
resources!

Win XP has been far easier on me. However, I/O issues with USB 2.0 had me
stumped for 8 months until I got a different PCI card. I don't own a computer
that has XP on it.
When the new mobos for AM2 chips come out en force, I'll give shopping another
shot. Hopefully very soon. By Christmas.
I hear the ATI SB 450's and the NForce 4 mobos have very, very bad defects in
relation to I/O issues.
The new ATI SB 600's and NForce 5's are supposed to clear up these issues.

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:23:40 -0600, "Bill in Co."

As far as the USB issue is concerned, we can often (usually?) get the
necessary drivers for Win98SE from the peripheral manufacturer, AFAIK.

The difference is that with Win98xx, each flash drive has to have its
own driver.

I seem to have noticed that. I mean, it's really weird, I have a couple
of *identical* flash based mp3 players, and it seemingly had to install
drivers separately for each, even though they're the same units! It's
almost like each peripheral has a particular serial number and has to have
its very own unique driver, yet I can't understand that since it's the same
chips inside each of my identical peripherals. Maybe the codes being sent
back to the computer (by each identical peripheral during installation) are
different?

Not all drives do have Win98SE or Win98 drivers,
including web site, and often it's hard to find which site, which
model, and even which serial number range.

One way to beat that is to use a card reader and SD cards instead of
USB flash drives. The card reader has one set of drivers, and can
then read as many SD cards as you like, of any brand.

I'm not sure what a "card reader" is. I guess I could look it up.
Sounds like it's a special USB port card with its own drivers, and not just
a simple, standard, internal USB2 card, as I have now (since I added that
some time back)

There are other advantages, too...
- Bart CDR boot will see SD hot-swap card changes OK
- SD cards are faster and less prone to delayed-write corruption
- SD cards have a hardware write-protect switch
- you can use the same cards in cameras that use SD cards
- not much price or max-capacity differences between SD and flash




------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
------------ ----- --- -- - - - -