Scandisk surface scan - how to clear the flag

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:57:08 -0500, Bill Watt wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:04:59 +0800, budgie wrote:

The problem is that there is NO PROBLEM FOUND when Windows Scandisk does it's
quickscan and surface scan. No smoking gun.

YOU NEED TO STOP THE IMPROPER SHUTDOWNS!!!

I agree, but until I replace the drive I have needed a way to prevent
redundant/pointless surface scans at inopportune times.

Running Scandisk /fix may remove the flag.

I tried a "scandisk /?" in Start-Run and it said:

For information about the command-line parameters supported by ScanDisk for
Windows, look up 'checking for errors, in disks' in the Windows Help index.
Then view the topic 'Checking your disk for errors every time Windows starts'.

Under Windows Help the nearest to that wording was:

To check for disk errors when your computer starts

and it only shows /a, /n and /p as command line switches.

"budgie" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:43:17 -0000, "Noel Paton"

wrote:

I say again - what makes you think the problem is with the HD - It's very
unlikely that it is!(especially since it passes a 3hr+ thorough scan!!)

You can test the HD, using the PowerMax utility at www.maxtor.com - but if
you won't believe advice, you probably won't believe the results of the
test, either so go out and waste your money on an unnecessary HD, and then
find out it's a £5 fan that started sticking which actually caused the
problem.

It IS the HDD. I can hear it drop - sounds like an olde drive
head-parking
"clunk" and then I hear it spin up again. On one occasion I was fast
enough to
hear the "drop" and get several finger ontgo the underside of the drive,
and
felt the effect of reapplication of power to the motor.

The case is open, and I can see the processor fan. Processor temp is
reported
at typically 38C - currently days here are in the 20's.

S.M.A.R.T. is enabled and I have run extensive testing with PowerMax.
Neither
reports any problem.

In that case, you need to check the power supply - it may be that that's
overheating!
If PowerMax says there's nothing wrong with the drive, there's very little
chance that there is anything wrong with the drive.
--
Noel Paton (MS-MVP 2002-2006, Windows)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.crashfixpc.com/millsrpch.htm

http://tinyurl.com/6oztj

Please read http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm on how to post messages to NG's

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:01:54 -0000, "Noel Paton"
wrote:


"budgie" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:43:17 -0000, "Noel Paton"

wrote:

I say again - what makes you think the problem is with the HD - It's very
unlikely that it is!(especially since it passes a 3hr+ thorough scan!!)

You can test the HD, using the PowerMax utility at www.maxtor.com - but if
you won't believe advice, you probably won't believe the results of the
test, either so go out and waste your money on an unnecessary HD, and then
find out it's a £5 fan that started sticking which actually caused the
problem.

It IS the HDD. I can hear it drop - sounds like an olde drive
head-parking
"clunk" and then I hear it spin up again. On one occasion I was fast
enough to
hear the "drop" and get several finger ontgo the underside of the drive,
and
felt the effect of reapplication of power to the motor.

The case is open, and I can see the processor fan. Processor temp is
reported
at typically 38C - currently days here are in the 20's.

S.M.A.R.T. is enabled and I have run extensive testing with PowerMax.
Neither
reports any problem.

In that case, you need to check the power supply - it may be that that's
overheating!

Nope, it's absolutely loafing too.

If PowerMax says there's nothing wrong with the drive, there's very little
chance that there is anything wrong with the drive.

The "clunk" from the drive, the subsequent spin-up, and Windows reaction all
tell me otherwise.

When it's going, it's going fine. Hence the clean diagnostics. Then it has the
hiccups which it smartly recovers from. I'm assuming that the SMART doesn't
report a problem because the drive is "out of it" for that moment.

But thanks for your input.

"budgie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:01:54 -0000, "Noel Paton"

wrote:


"budgie" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:43:17 -0000, "Noel Paton"

wrote:

I say again - what makes you think the problem is with the HD - It's
very
unlikely that it is!(especially since it passes a 3hr+ thorough scan!!)

You can test the HD, using the PowerMax utility at www.maxtor.com - but
if
you won't believe advice, you probably won't believe the results of the
test, either so go out and waste your money on an unnecessary HD, and
then
find out it's a £5 fan that started sticking which actually caused the
problem.

It IS the HDD. I can hear it drop - sounds like an olde drive
head-parking
"clunk" and then I hear it spin up again. On one occasion I was fast
enough to
hear the "drop" and get several finger ontgo the underside of the drive,
and
felt the effect of reapplication of power to the motor.

The case is open, and I can see the processor fan. Processor temp is
reported
at typically 38C - currently days here are in the 20's.

S.M.A.R.T. is enabled and I have run extensive testing with PowerMax.
Neither
reports any problem.

In that case, you need to check the power supply - it may be that that's
overheating!

Nope, it's absolutely loafing too.

If PowerMax says there's nothing wrong with the drive, there's very little
chance that there is anything wrong with the drive.

The "clunk" from the drive, the subsequent spin-up, and Windows reaction
all
tell me otherwise.

When it's going, it's going fine. Hence the clean diagnostics. Then it
has the
hiccups which it smartly recovers from. I'm assuming that the SMART
doesn't
report a problem because the drive is "out of it" for that moment.



The point is that the 'clunk' could well be from power interruptions - and
those COULD cause damage to your HD - forcing a sudden return to Park. as
the capacitors drain
It would be rare (but not unheard of) for that type of interruption to be
recorded in SMART.
BTW - did you check that your HD isn't being switched off by Power-saving
settings??

Just because the fan is 'loafing' doesn't mean that the power supply is
OK - it could either be mis-reporting the temp, or just plain faulty. - get
it tested!

An HD rarely gets a more thorough workout that it does during a full
thorough-mode ScanDisk - and I would expect it to fail during one if it has
a tendency to fail - while the rest of the PC is relatively underused, and
the PSU can relax a bit. Since such a scan takes over 3 hours on your system
(does it stall at any point?? - or does it proceed fairly constantly?), then
I would be surprised if it turns out to be the HD.

--
Noel Paton (MS-MVP 2002-2006, Windows)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.crashfixpc.com/millsrpch.htm

http://tinyurl.com/6oztj

Please read http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm on how to post messages to NG's

"budgie" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:57:08 -0500, Bill Watt wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:04:59 +0800, budgie wrote:

The problem is that there is NO PROBLEM FOUND when Windows Scandisk does it's
quickscan and surface scan. No smoking gun.

YOU NEED TO STOP THE IMPROPER SHUTDOWNS!!!

I agree, but until I replace the drive I have needed a way to prevent
redundant/pointless surface scans at inopportune times.

Running Scandisk /fix may remove the flag.

I tried a "scandisk /?" in Start-Run and it said:

For information about the command-line parameters supported by ScanDisk for
Windows, look up 'checking for errors, in disks' in the Windows Help index.
Then view the topic 'Checking your disk for errors every time Windows starts'.

Under Windows Help the nearest to that wording was:

To check for disk errors when your computer starts

and it only shows /a, /n and /p as command line switches.

That's because whenever you call scandisk from within Windows, even to check
parameters, it passes off to scandskw, and then you get the message you saw, and the
params for scandskw

Boot to DOS and check the params for scandisk from there.

As to your original problem, boot to DOS (not a DOS window in Windows):
- Start the computer and hold down the CTRL key till the Windows 98 Startup menu
(boot menu) appears.
OR
- Repeatedly tap the F8 key after the memory count to bring up the boot menu.
- Use the arrow keys to select "Command Prompt Only" and press Enter.
Then run scandisk from the command prompt, thusly:
scandisk /all /surface

When done it will return you to the command prompt...press Ctrl+Alt+Delete to
restart.

This will often fix the problem you are having.
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP Shell/User, A+
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:49:43 -0500, "glee" wrote:

"budgie" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:57:08 -0500, Bill Watt wrote:

(snip)

Running Scandisk /fix may remove the flag.

I tried a "scandisk /?" in Start-Run and it said:

For information about the command-line parameters supported by ScanDisk for
Windows, look up 'checking for errors, in disks' in the Windows Help index.
Then view the topic 'Checking your disk for errors every time Windows starts'.

Under Windows Help the nearest to that wording was:

To check for disk errors when your computer starts

and it only shows /a, /n and /p as command line switches.

That's because whenever you call scandisk from within Windows, even to check
parameters, it passes off to scandskw, and then you get the message you saw, and the
params for scandskw

Boot to DOS and check the params for scandisk from there.

Just saw Bill's update - he was referring to Scanreg ;-)

As to your original problem, boot to DOS (not a DOS window in Windows):

(snip instructions)

know that off by heart - do it VERY often.

Then run scandisk from the command prompt, thusly:
scandisk /all /surface

When done it will return you to the command prompt...press Ctrl+Alt+Delete to
restart.

This will often fix the problem you are having.

Why should a surface scan under DOS give a different outcome than under Windows?

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:09:47 -0000, "Noel Paton"
wrote:


"budgie" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:01:54 -0000, "Noel Paton"

wrote:


"budgie" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:43:17 -0000, "Noel Paton"

wrote:

I say again - what makes you think the problem is with the HD - It's
very
unlikely that it is!(especially since it passes a 3hr+ thorough scan!!)

You can test the HD, using the PowerMax utility at www.maxtor.com - but
if
you won't believe advice, you probably won't believe the results of the
test, either so go out and waste your money on an unnecessary HD, and
then
find out it's a £5 fan that started sticking which actually caused the
problem.

It IS the HDD. I can hear it drop - sounds like an olde drive
head-parking
"clunk" and then I hear it spin up again. On one occasion I was fast
enough to
hear the "drop" and get several finger ontgo the underside of the drive,
and
felt the effect of reapplication of power to the motor.

The case is open, and I can see the processor fan. Processor temp is
reported
at typically 38C - currently days here are in the 20's.

S.M.A.R.T. is enabled and I have run extensive testing with PowerMax.
Neither
reports any problem.

In that case, you need to check the power supply - it may be that that's
overheating!

Nope, it's absolutely loafing too.

If PowerMax says there's nothing wrong with the drive, there's very little
chance that there is anything wrong with the drive.

The "clunk" from the drive, the subsequent spin-up, and Windows reaction
all
tell me otherwise.

When it's going, it's going fine. Hence the clean diagnostics. Then it
has the
hiccups which it smartly recovers from. I'm assuming that the SMART
doesn't
report a problem because the drive is "out of it" for that moment.



The point is that the 'clunk' could well be from power interruptions - and
those COULD cause damage to your HD - forcing a sudden return to Park. as
the capacitors drain
It would be rare (but not unheard of) for that type of interruption to be
recorded in SMART.
BTW - did you check that your HD isn't being switched off by Power-saving
settings??

yep.

Just because the fan is 'loafing' doesn't mean that the power supply is
OK - it could either be mis-reporting the temp, or just plain faulty. - get
it tested!

it was actually substituted about two months ago. This problem pre-dates that.

An HD rarely gets a more thorough workout that it does during a full
thorough-mode ScanDisk - and I would expect it to fail during one if it has
a tendency to fail - while the rest of the PC is relatively underused, and
the PSU can relax a bit. Since such a scan takes over 3 hours on your system
(does it stall at any point?? - or does it proceed fairly constantly?), then
I would be surprised if it turns out to be the HD.

The surface can proceeds with monotonous pace throughout. No hiccups.

"budgie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:09:47 -0000, "Noel Paton"

The point is that the 'clunk' could well be from power interruptions - and
those COULD cause damage to your HD - forcing a sudden return to Park. as
the capacitors drain
It would be rare (but not unheard of) for that type of interruption to be
recorded in SMART.
BTW - did you check that your HD isn't being switched off by Power-saving
settings??

yep.

Just because the fan is 'loafing' doesn't mean that the power supply is
OK - it could either be mis-reporting the temp, or just plain faulty. -
get
it tested!

it was actually substituted about two months ago. This problem pre-dates
that.

An HD rarely gets a more thorough workout that it does during a full
thorough-mode ScanDisk - and I would expect it to fail during one if it
has
a tendency to fail - while the rest of the PC is relatively underused, and
the PSU can relax a bit. Since such a scan takes over 3 hours on your
system
(does it stall at any point?? - or does it proceed fairly constantly?),
then
I would be surprised if it turns out to be the HD.

The surface can proceeds with monotonous pace throughout. No hiccups.

Everything you are saying points to it being a problem with something OTHER
than the HD - my prime suspect is still the PSU.

--
Noel Paton (MS-MVP 2002-2006, Windows)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.crashfixpc.com/millsrpch.htm

http://tinyurl.com/6oztj

Please read http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm on how to post messages to NG's

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:22:14 -0000, "Noel Paton"
wrote:

"budgie" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:09:47 -0000, "Noel Paton"

The point is that the 'clunk' could well be from power interruptions - and
those COULD cause damage to your HD - forcing a sudden return to Park. as
the capacitors drain
It would be rare (but not unheard of) for that type of interruption to be
recorded in SMART.
BTW - did you check that your HD isn't being switched off by Power-saving
settings??

yep.

Just because the fan is 'loafing' doesn't mean that the power supply is
OK - it could either be mis-reporting the temp, or just plain faulty. -
get
it tested!

it was actually substituted about two months ago. This problem pre-dates
that.

An HD rarely gets a more thorough workout that it does during a full
thorough-mode ScanDisk - and I would expect it to fail during one if it
has
a tendency to fail - while the rest of the PC is relatively underused, and
the PSU can relax a bit. Since such a scan takes over 3 hours on your
system
(does it stall at any point?? - or does it proceed fairly constantly?),
then
I would be surprised if it turns out to be the HD.

The surface can proceeds with monotonous pace throughout. No hiccups.

Everything you are saying points to it being a problem with something OTHER
than the HD - my prime suspect is still the PSU.

Thank heaven that it's a (largely) free world.

Reply at end:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:59:41 +0800, budgie wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:01:54 -0000, "Noel Paton"
wrote:


"budgie" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:43:17 -0000, "Noel Paton"

wrote:

I say again - what makes you think the problem is with the HD - It's very
unlikely that it is!(especially since it passes a 3hr+ thorough scan!!)

You can test the HD, using the PowerMax utility at www.maxtor.com - but if
you won't believe advice, you probably won't believe the results of the
test, either so go out and waste your money on an unnecessary HD, and then
find out it's a £5 fan that started sticking which actually caused the
problem.

It IS the HDD. I can hear it drop - sounds like an olde drive
head-parking
"clunk" and then I hear it spin up again. On one occasion I was fast
enough to
hear the "drop" and get several finger ontgo the underside of the drive,
and
felt the effect of reapplication of power to the motor.

The case is open, and I can see the processor fan. Processor temp is
reported
at typically 38C - currently days here are in the 20's.

S.M.A.R.T. is enabled and I have run extensive testing with PowerMax.
Neither
reports any problem.

In that case, you need to check the power supply - it may be that that's
overheating!

Nope, it's absolutely loafing too.

If PowerMax says there's nothing wrong with the drive, there's very little
chance that there is anything wrong with the drive.

The "clunk" from the drive, the subsequent spin-up, and Windows reaction all
tell me otherwise.

When it's going, it's going fine. Hence the clean diagnostics. Then it has the
hiccups which it smartly recovers from. I'm assuming that the SMART doesn't
report a problem because the drive is "out of it" for that moment.

But thanks for your input.

I'm aware that Scandisk and a Surface Scan show no errors when you
run them. Here is some info I ran into:

The file system also detects when Windows 98 shuts down improperly.
If Windows 98 is shut down without going through the standard
shutdown sequence, real mode Scandisk will be executed at the next
startup. The purpose of running Scandisk is to correct potential
errors in the file allocation table (FAT) before continuing the boot
process.

In the event that a Disk read/write error is encountered during
normal Windows 98 operation, a flag will also be set to run real
mode Scandisk with Surface Scan.

The flag is set in the FAT. ( File Allocation Table ) =======

Completing a Surface Scan is supposed to remove the Flag but
apparently that isn't happening for you.

Look in the Scandisk.ini file in the Windows\Command folder. Look at
this section:
[CUSTOM]
DriveSummary = Off ; Auto, On, Off
AllSummary = Off ; Auto, On, Off
Surface = Never ; Never, Always, Prompt ==========
CheckHost = Always ; Never, Always, Prompt
SaveLog = Append ; Off, Append, Overwrite
Undo = Never ; Prompt, Never

Check Surface= yours may be set to Always. Change it to Never or
Prompt. A setting of Always would explain your problem. The
semi-colons ( ; ) make the following text only a remark.

Regards,

Bill Watt
Computer Help and Information http://home.ptd.net/~bwatt/