Problem in Windows 98SE after changing hard drive.

"Stan Hilliard" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:55:19 -0400, "Bill Blanton"
wrote:
"Stan Hilliard" wrote in message ...

I replaced my 20 G HDD with a 80 G HDD. I copied the partitions from
the old to the new drive with Partition Magic version 6.

skipping a few steps

1) After changing drives, it took 8-10 minutes to boot off the new
drive.

2) The Partition magic "Partitioninfo" utility does not find any
errors with the C: partition.


I still have the performance problem. The PC now performs at
normal/fast speed for a while and then it will freeze up for 20
seconds to 1 minute or more. One place that this happens is in the
start menu, where there is sometimes long delays in moving the focus
to a new item, and sometimes not!

Information:
The new HDD is a Seagate 80 G ATA100.
The old HDD is/was an IBM 20 G ATA 100.

as I dial up the Internet I got
this message:

"Disk write error
Unable to write to drive C:
Data or files may be lost"

I then copied a text file from E: to C:. It copied but it had one of
those 1 minute delays. Another delay when I deleted it from C:


A couple of things you can try.

Download and run "Seatools" from Seagates site and direct it to do
a "full diagnostic"
http://www.seagate.com/support/seato...toold_reg.html

See where I explained my experience with this elsewhere above in this
thread.

Boot to DOS and do a SCANDISK /ALL /SURFACE Pay attention to
the cluster counter, and note any "hangs".


Here is more information that I have discovered:

If I [cntl][alt][del] right after boot-up, there is only ONE thing in
the window -- explorer.

Does Msconfig startup tab show any items?

Did you check this?

The performance symptom is that Windows 98SE frequently will freeze
for 20 seconds to a minute doing simple things like selecting an item
from the start menu. It takes that long just to change focus from one
menu item to another. These delays occur intermittently. When they
happen I can move the mouse cursor, but the focus doesn't move to the
item. The same thing happens selecting desktop icons -- sometimes it
works immediately and sometimes the long delay.

Check that virtual memory settings are ok. (let windows manage).

Before copying the C: partition to the new drive, Windows was set to
use drive H: for virtual memory. This could be it, but I can't boot to
that partition anymore to check it because of changes that I made.

All that matters is what the settings are now. Does H: even exist anymore?


If the disk passes all tests, I would delete the partition and recopy it using
the PM boot disk. Did you do a resize also? I would do a copy retaining the
20GB. There is a cluster size difference between the two. Mabey PM didn't
handle it well?

I did resize the partition (upward) Is there a problem with this?

Not necessarily. Just that if you copy a file filled partition, and also resize
it to a size that uses a larger cluster size, then the partition manager
will have to relocate a lot of files. It can be done, I was just speculating
on a possibilty.

I deleted and recreated empty partitions using PM. After resizing, I
used xcopy in a DOS window to transfer the data.

xcopy c:\ e: /e/h/k/r/c

So the swap file is still configured to H: ?

EDIT C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM.INI Look under the [386Enh] section, and
adjust it there, if necessary.

PagingDrive=C:
PagingFile=C:\WINDOWS\WIN386.SWP



SeaTools doesn't find any problem, but when I make it the boot drive
it won't start windows.

Any messages when you boot? Did you set the new partition active?

Another problem:
I have previously copied some partitions to the new HDD using the PM
recovery disk. But now, I cannot start the PM recovery disk while the
new drive is connected to the PC. PM produces the message:

Error #91 Disk Manager has been detected on drive 3.
If you no longer need to use Disk Manager on your hard drive, you can
fix Error 91 by removing the Disk Manager signature from the Master
Boot Record (MBR). If you are not sure whether you still need to use
Disk Manager, contact your hard drive manufacturer. They can tell you
not only if you still need Disk Manager, but also how to repair it. If
you determine it is all right to erase the Disk Manager signature,
perform the following.... (It then explains using FDISK /CMBR
drivenumber)

The Disk Manager is only needed if your BIOS can't see the whole drive.
If the BIOS setup program reports the correct size (or total sectors), then
you can remove the disk manager.

Instead of using fdisk, the software that came with the drive, or the manager
itself may have an option to remove it. Fdisk can make things worse, if not
used properly. Once removed, (and if the BIOS can see the drive), PM should
have no problem.

I suspect that not having the drive overlay loaded when you did the copy,
and then loaded to boot , may be this part of the problem. This needs to be
resolved -before- anything else. If you are forced to use the drive manager/overlay
to see the 80GB drive, then you must have it load every time you boot. Even
when booting from a floppy.

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:33:49 -0400, "Bill Blanton"
wrote:

"Stan Hilliard" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:55:19 -0400, "Bill Blanton"
wrote:
"Stan Hilliard" wrote in message ...

I replaced my 20 G HDD with a 80 G HDD. I copied the partitions from
the old to the new drive with Partition Magic version 6.

skipping a few steps

1) After changing drives, it took 8-10 minutes to boot off the new
drive.

2) The Partition magic "Partitioninfo" utility does not find any
errors with the C: partition.


I still have the performance problem. The PC now performs at
normal/fast speed for a while and then it will freeze up for 20
seconds to 1 minute or more. One place that this happens is in the
start menu, where there is sometimes long delays in moving the focus
to a new item, and sometimes not!

Information:
The new HDD is a Seagate 80 G ATA100.
The old HDD is/was an IBM 20 G ATA 100.

as I dial up the Internet I got
this message:

"Disk write error
Unable to write to drive C:
Data or files may be lost"

I then copied a text file from E: to C:. It copied but it had one of
those 1 minute delays. Another delay when I deleted it from C:


A couple of things you can try.

Download and run "Seatools" from Seagates site and direct it to do
a "full diagnostic"
http://www.seagate.com/support/seato...toold_reg.html

See where I explained my experience with this elsewhere above in this
thread.

Boot to DOS and do a SCANDISK /ALL /SURFACE Pay attention to
the cluster counter, and note any "hangs".


Here is more information that I have discovered:

If I [cntl][alt][del] right after boot-up, there is only ONE thing in
the window -- explorer.

Does Msconfig startup tab show any items?

Did you check this?

Msconfig shows 25 items right now, having booted with the old drive.
But the first time I copied partitions I ran "clean Startup"
(MiniApps) first. The second time, that I created the partitions on
the new drive, I don't think I ran "Clean Startup". (and now cannot
boot windows from that drive)

The performance symptom is that Windows 98SE frequently will freeze
for 20 seconds to a minute doing simple things like selecting an item
from the start menu. It takes that long just to change focus from one
menu item to another. These delays occur intermittently. When they
happen I can move the mouse cursor, but the focus doesn't move to the
item. The same thing happens selecting desktop icons -- sometimes it
works immediately and sometimes the long delay.

Check that virtual memory settings are ok. (let windows manage).

Before copying the C: partition to the new drive, Windows was set to
use drive H: for virtual memory. This could be it, but I can't boot to
that partition anymore to check it because of changes that I made.

All that matters is what the settings are now. Does H: even exist anymore?


If the disk passes all tests, I would delete the partition and recopy it using
the PM boot disk. Did you do a resize also? I would do a copy retaining the
20GB. There is a cluster size difference between the two. Mabey PM didn't
handle it well?

I did resize the partition (upward) Is there a problem with this?

Not necessarily. Just that if you copy a file filled partition, and also resize
it to a size that uses a larger cluster size, then the partition manager
will have to relocate a lot of files. It can be done, I was just speculating
on a possibilty.

I deleted and recreated empty partitions using PM. After resizing, I
used xcopy in a DOS window to transfer the data.

xcopy c:\ e: /e/h/k/r/c

So the swap file is still configured to H: ?

EDIT C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM.INI Look under the [386Enh] section, and
adjust it there, if necessary.

PagingDrive=C:
PagingFile=C:\WINDOWS\WIN386.SWP

I will do that for the next attempt to copy the partitions.

SeaTools doesn't find any problem, but when I make it the boot drive
it won't start windows.

Any messages when you boot? Did you set the new partition active?

I set the new Win98 partition active and the Win95 partition hidden.
It booted with no messages the first time, but froze the on boot after
the second copying.

Another problem:
I have previously copied some partitions to the new HDD using the PM
recovery disk. But now, I cannot start the PM recovery disk while the
new drive is connected to the PC. PM produces the message:

Error #91 Disk Manager has been detected on drive 3.
If you no longer need to use Disk Manager on your hard drive, you can
fix Error 91 by removing the Disk Manager signature from the Master
Boot Record (MBR). If you are not sure whether you still need to use
Disk Manager, contact your hard drive manufacturer. They can tell you
not only if you still need Disk Manager, but also how to repair it. If
you determine it is all right to erase the Disk Manager signature,
perform the following.... (It then explains using FDISK /CMBR
drivenumber)

The Disk Manager is only needed if your BIOS can't see the whole drive.
If the BIOS setup program reports the correct size (or total sectors), then
you can remove the disk manager.

Instead of using fdisk, the software that came with the drive, or the manager
itself may have an option to remove it. Fdisk can make things worse, if not
used properly. Once removed, (and if the BIOS can see the drive), PM should
have no problem.

I suspect that not having the drive overlay loaded when you did the copy,
and then loaded to boot , may be this part of the problem. This needs to be
resolved -before- anything else. If you are forced to use the drive manager/overlay
to see the 80GB drive, then you must have it load every time you boot. Even
when booting from a floppy.

What controls the loading of the drive overlay? How do I load it?

The error 91 message with the floppy said that it detected Disk
Manager, on the drive, but that Disk Manager was not running.

Current status is that the new drive can run as a third drive, but not
to boot from if I set it as drive 1 with the Win98 partition active.

Stan Hilliard

Stan,
I am going to stay in the background, because Bill Blanton is quite experienced in
this area, and you don't need too many cooks in the kitchen right now. ;-)
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP W95/98 Systems
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm


"Stan Hilliard" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:06:01 -0400, "glee"
wrote:

"Stan Hilliard" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:59:17 -0500, Stan Hilliard
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:51:50 -0500, Stan Hilliard
wrote:

I replaced my 20 G HDD with a 80 G HDD. I copied the partitions from
the old to the new drive with Partition Magic version 6.

skipping a few steps

1) After changing drives, it took 8-10 minutes to boot off the new
drive.

2) The Partition magic "Partitioninfo" utility does not find any
errors with the C: partition. However, Partition Magic "Check for
errors" on drive C: gave this message:

Error - 993. Partition contains open files. Use the operating system
check utility.

3) Scandisk showed about 15 files with this message: (example)

C:\Windows\desktop\hhser~1\develo~1\software\sof twa~2xx&\helpfo~1'
folder cannot be opened because its MS-DOS name, including the names
of any folders it is in, is larger than 66 characters.

Most of these errors involved files in \Windows\ and \Program Files\.

By the way, Scandisk does not have any problem with those same paths
on my old drive.

So I seem to have two problems.
1) Extremely slow performance, and
2) the problem with paths.

What are these problems and how can I correct them.

Sincerely, Stan Hilliard

I have learned that the reason that scandisk did not find long DOS
paths on my old drive but did on the new drive is not due to the
difference in drives.

With the new drive, I unchecked Scandisk's "automatically fix errors"
checkbox, which apparently caused it to do more checking or reporting.
With "automatically fix errors" checked, Scandisk does not notice the
long DOS paths.

Actually, this helped me to discover and fix the cause of a long-term
problem.

I have changed the new drive's jumper from "cable select" to master
(like the old drive was). That might have improved performance, but
the problem is not steady.

I still have the performance problem. The PC now performs at
normal/fast speed for a while and then it will freeze up for 20
seconds to 1 minute or more. One place that this happens is in the
start menu, where there is sometimes long delays in moving the focus
to a new item, and sometimes not!

Information:
The new HDD is a Seagate 80 G ATA100.
The old HDD is/was an IBM 20 G ATA 100.

I now don't think that the problem is slow reading of data on the new
drive. This because my new-mail folder (using Pegasus) containing
1,300 messages loads as fast as it ever did. That data is on another
partition (E on the same drive. However, as I up the Internet I got
this message:

"Disk write error
Unable to write to drive C:
Data or files may be lost"

I then copied a text file from E: to C:. It copied but it had one of
those 1 minute delays. Another delay when I deleted it from C:

Here is more information that I have discovered:

If I [cntl][alt][del] right after boot-up, there is only ONE thing in
the window -- explorer.

The performance symptom is that Windows 98SE frequently will freeze
for 20 seconds to a minute doing simple things like selecting an item
from the start menu. It takes that long just to change focus from one
menu item to another. These delays occur intermittently. When they
happen I can move the mouse cursor, but the focus doesn't move to the
item. The same thing happens selecting desktop icons -- sometimes it
works immediately and sometimes the long delay.

Stan Hilliard

Check the new drive (Seagate?) with Seagate's SeaTools diagnostics:
Seagate SeaTools:
http://www.seagate.com/support/seatools/index.html

Download:
http://www.seagate.com/support/seatools/B7a.html
http://www.seagate.com/support/seato...toold_reg.html

Error codes:
http://www.seagate.com/support/npf/s...ror_index.html

The hard drive came with version 1.06 of SeaTools. I downloaded
version 3.0 and performed the thorough test, which took several hours.
It does not find any problems.

The problem with the Seagate DiscWizard initialize the hard drive
partitions is that it won't allow me to make two primary partitions
for dual booting. The second partition is logical and is nested in an
extended partition.

I re-built the HDD using PartitionMagic to create the two partitions
primary but this time using xcopy in a DOS window to transfer the
data.

xcopy c:\ e: /e/h/k/r/c

Now the drive tests OK with SeaTools, but when I make it the boot
drive it hangs just before starting Windows. The drive is recognized,
according to the startup screen .

As a non-boot third drive, the new drive seems to perform well.

Stan Hilliard

"Stan Hilliard" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:33:49 -0400, "Bill Blanton"
wrote:

The Disk Manager is only needed if your BIOS can't see the whole drive.
If the BIOS setup program reports the correct size (or total sectors), then
you can remove the disk manager.

This is the big key You need to check the BIOS to see if it supports the
80GB drive, or not.


Instead of using fdisk, the software that came with the drive, or the manager
itself may have an option to remove it. Fdisk can make things worse, if not
used properly. Once removed, (and if the BIOS can see the drive), PM should
have no problem.

I suspect that not having the drive overlay loaded when you did the copy,
and then loaded to boot , may be this part of the problem. This needs to be
resolved -before- anything else. If you are forced to use the drive manager/overlay
to see the 80GB drive, then you must have it load every time you boot. Even
when booting from a floppy.

What controls the loading of the drive overlay? How do I load it?

Drive overlays are loaded from the Master Boot Record (the first sector)
of the boot disk. They basically overwrite the BIOS disk service interrupts
with new code taht can handle the larger unsupported disk.


The error 91 message with the floppy said that it detected Disk
Manager, on the drive, but that Disk Manager was not running.

The software that came with the drive may have just put it in the MBR
of the new drive, depending on what it was configured to do. Did it ask
any questions as to your purpose? (Some of these wizards are too smart
for our own good..)


Current status is that the new drive can run as a third drive, but not
to boot from if I set it as drive 1 with the Win98 partition active.

I would do this-

Check the BIOS.

If the BIOS lists it as 80GB, or correct count of LBA sectors, then get rid of the
drive overlay, and do a partition copy with PM again. If the disk manager has no
option to remove itself, then you can wipe the overlay along with the partition table
information on the drive with mbrwork (or a similar program such as Wipe or Zap).
This will essentially put you back to a "new drive" state, where you can start over.

(I don't know wipe or zap so...)
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html
To use mbrwork. Put mbrwork on a boot floppy, boot with the floppy to insure no
overlays are loaded, and run it .

Then do-

7) Change Active hard drive. (make --absolutely sure-- you are accessing the correct drive.
They are numbered starting from zero. e.g. 3 drives will be (0-2)

1) Backup first track. (just in case. This will write a backup of the 1st track to the floppy.
In case of disaster (there won't be, if you are in the correct drive), you can run mbrwork
again and do a "restore track"))

4) Reset MBR to zero. (this will clear the drive overlay boot code and the partition tables
on the selected drive)

5) Install standard MBR code (this is basic fdisk /mbr code)
(if prompted, choose "Just set boot flag")

PM should now be okay with the drive and you can do the partition copy again.

(note that my copy of mbrwork is older than the current version, so option numbers
and wording may have changed)


If, OTOH, the BIOS doesn't support the drive, then set the new drive as the boot
drive, boot and watch the screen for a message such as ~"hit key to enter Drive
Manager"~. After you are in, and the drive overlay is loaded, put the PM boot
disk in, and then choose the option to boot from the floppy. Then delete the
partitions and do the copy using PM.

"Bill Blanton" wrote in message ...

PM should now be okay with the drive and you can do the partition copy again.

Note also that win95, 98, ME OSs are not designed to boot past the 7.8GB mark...

Don't go too far my friend..(..or you PCR!)
:-)


"glee" wrote in message ...
Stan,
I am going to stay in the background, because Bill Blanton is quite experienced in
this area, and you don't need too many cooks in the kitchen right now. ;-)
--

I'm here, I'm here-- sitting on a tomato!

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
should things get worse after this,
PCR

"Bill Blanton" wrote in message
...
| Don't go too far my friend..(..or you PCR!)
| :-)
|
|
| "glee" wrote in message
...
| Stan,
| I am going to stay in the background, because Bill Blanton is quite
experienced in
| this area, and you don't need too many cooks in the kitchen right
now. ;-)
| --
|
|

It means, you should probably pass on the salad, if you ever eat at his house. ;-)
--
Glen Ventura, MS MVP W95/98 Systems
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm

"Bill Blanton" wrote in message
...
... don't know what it means.. but it makes sense..
:-))


"PCR" wrote in message
...
I'm here, I'm here-- sitting on a tomato!

"Bill Blanton" wrote in message
...
| Don't go too far my friend..(..or you PCR!)
| :-)
|

I refer to the broth that too many cooks are tending, sir! One of you
pushed me into it! (I would NEVER sit on a salad!)

--
Thanks or Good Luck,
There may be humor in this post, and,
Naturally, you will not sue,
should things get worse after this,
PCR

"glee" wrote in message
...
| It means, you should probably pass on the salad, if you ever eat at
his house. ;-)
| --
| Glen Ventura, MS MVP W95/98 Systems
| http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
|
| "Bill Blanton" wrote in message
| ...
| ... don't know what it means.. but it makes sense..
| :-))
|
|
| "PCR" wrote in message
| ...
| I'm here, I'm here-- sitting on a tomato!
|
| "Bill Blanton" wrote in message
| ...
| | Don't go too far my friend..(..or you PCR!)
| | :-)
| |
|
|
|
|

Here is my latest situation.

1) Seagate Support told me to re-initialize the drive by zero-filling
it with the latest version of their DiscWizard Starter Edition, which
I did.

2) Seagate Support told me to use Fdisk to make partitions, but when I
did, Fdisk told me that a 70 GB partition was 10 GB. So I started over
zero filled, and used PartitionMagic to make partitions and copy
partitions.

3) I can see the whole 80 GB drive with Windows Explorer and with
PartitionMagic.

3) I can now successfully boot with the PM recovery diskettes. The
failure due to Disk Manager does not occur. I think that when I
first used DiscWizard to try to make partitions -- that is what put
Drive Manager on the HDD.

4) After copying the Win98 C: partition to the new drive and properly
setting the swap drive, the system was still extremely slow -- that
was my original problem!!!!

5) Performance was finally restored by re-cabling the two HDDs on the
ATA100 card -- as suggested by Seagate Support.

Original (bad)
Primary cable, master = Seagate ST380013A (80 GB)
Primary cable, slave = IBM DTLA-307020 (20 GB)

New (good)
Primary cable, master = Seagate ST380013A (80 GB)
Secondary cable, master = IBM DTLA-307020 (20 GB)

I haven't run the new arrangement long enough to be sure, but I think
that problem is "fixed".

6) I have two further questions:

1) Scandisk says that the Seagate drive has 4 MB in bad sectors. I do
not know if that is real, or if it happened due to the temporary
cabling setup. Is that bad enough to suggest that over time there will
be more problems?

2) I have various other IBM and Western Digital drives that I connect
up to make backups. There should be a more prevention-oriented way to
permanently fix the conflict between the drives. Any suggestions?

I appreciate all the help in tracking this down,
Stan Hilliard

=========
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:51:50 -0500, Stan Hilliard
wrote:

I replaced my 20 G HDD with a 80 G HDD. I copied the partitions from
the old to the new drive with Partition Magic version 6.

skipping a few steps

1) After changing drives, it took 8-10 minutes to boot off the new
drive.

2) The Partition magic "Partitioninfo" utility does not find any
errors with the C: partition. However, Partition Magic "Check for
errors" on drive C: gave this message:

Error - 993. Partition contains open files. Use the operating system
check utility.

3) Scandisk showed about 15 files with this message: (example)

C:\Windows\desktop\hhser~1\develo~1\software\soft wa~2xx&\helpfo~1'
folder cannot be opened because its MS-DOS name, including the names
of any folders it is in, is larger than 66 characters.

Most of these errors involved files in \Windows\ and \Program Files\.

By the way, Scandisk does not have any problem with those same paths
on my old drive.

So I seem to have two problems.
1) Extremely slow performance, and
2) the problem with paths.

What are these problems and how can I correct them.

Sincerely, Stan Hilliard