gotta say.. so long ME

"webster72n" wrote..
To echo Mike, sorry to see you leave.
Suppose we'll find you at "nntp.aioe.org" under "alt.os.linux.ubuntu"?
Myself I plan to keep ME and run ubuntu as dual boot, if that's possible.
There's no reson for me to "trash" WinME, since it's running quite nicely.

I envy your experience with ME. For the most part, I was able to tame ME to
the point where it actually seemed like a reliable OS. However, eversince I
added more ram and a new AGP (DVI-capable) video card, ME has not been so
reliable anymore. But I refuse to regress with less ram and no DVI support.
I want to continue to upgrade my pc box with a few more things when
required - maybe even Firewire. An LCD monitor with DVI inputs is a next
priority.

Funny you should mention aioe.org. A few days prior I discovered that fine
server! I'll be spending a lot more time in Linux ng's or forums of all
kinds, that's for sure.

"webster72n" wrote..
Just one more question before you leave, Ogg:
Did you install Ubuntu (and I assume that's what you did)
all by itself, or in combination with another OS?

I still plan to be subscribed to this ng, but I don't envision lurking here
that often anymore. I believe that I have exhausted all I can out of my ME
pc over the last 7 years.

Regarding Ubuntu.. sofar I have only used it via Live CD boot on my upgraded
ME pc. I have, however, made a full install of it over my old 40gig hdd
which had my original ME system. That's the hdd that ME eventually
scandisk'd almost at every boot, and that also had an occasional clunking
sound. But, with Ubuntu, that hdd is operating absolutely fine! Maybe
that has something to do with the way Windows causes fragmentation? Looking
forward to saying goodbye to Windows scandisk and constant defragmentation
maintenance.

Ogg wrote:
"webster72n" wrote..
Just one more question before you leave, Ogg:
Did you install Ubuntu (and I assume that's what you did)
all by itself, or in combination with another OS?

I still plan to be subscribed to this ng, but I don't envision lurking here
that often anymore. I believe that I have exhausted all I can out of my ME
pc over the last 7 years.

Regarding Ubuntu.. sofar I have only used it via Live CD boot on my upgraded
ME pc. I have, however, made a full install of it over my old 40gig hdd
which had my original ME system. That's the hdd that ME eventually
scandisk'd almost at every boot, and that also had an occasional clunking
sound. But, with Ubuntu, that hdd is operating absolutely fine! Maybe
that has something to do with the way Windows causes fragmentation? Looking
forward to saying goodbye to Windows scandisk and constant defragmentation
maintenance.

What til you see Beryl ;-) nVidia cards are more Linux friendly than
ATI, btw.

The difference between Vista Aero and Beryl on Ubuntu:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ

Alias

Thanks for the feedback, Ogg.
Have a nice journey

Harry.


"Ogg" wrote in message
...
"webster72n" wrote..
Just one more question before you leave, Ogg:
Did you install Ubuntu (and I assume that's what you did)
all by itself, or in combination with another OS?

I still plan to be subscribed to this ng, but I don't envision lurking
here
that often anymore. I believe that I have exhausted all I can out of my
ME
pc over the last 7 years.

Regarding Ubuntu.. sofar I have only used it via Live CD boot on my
upgraded
ME pc. I have, however, made a full install of it over my old 40gig hdd
which had my original ME system. That's the hdd that ME eventually
scandisk'd almost at every boot, and that also had an occasional clunking
sound. But, with Ubuntu, that hdd is operating absolutely fine! Maybe
that has something to do with the way Windows causes fragmentation?
Looking
forward to saying goodbye to Windows scandisk and constant defragmentation
maintenance.

Ogg wrote :-

.... fragmentation? Looking forward to saying
goodbye to Windows scandisk and constant
defragmentation maintenance.

Hmm .. Not *strictly* true - but I can sure see its appeal.
See :- http://www.linux-sxs.org/housekeeping/frag.html

I've only tried running Ubuntu from the CD (not yet committed [installed] it
to HDD) on four different machines and it is certainly 'different'. The jury
is still out here, but was pleasantly surprised (and impressed) to see that
it recognised quite a bit of my hardware - and especially USB stuff (inc.
router) and my (laptop) PCMCIA WiFi card which gave (almost - just needed to
input my WEP code) instant access to the net.

However, I'm not yet ready to abandon WinMe. Suspect much more testing needs
to be done first - esp. locating drivers for 'older' hardware. Roll-on the
long winter nights - OTOH, I might just get myself a life g

Mart



"Ogg" wrote in message
...
"webster72n" wrote..
Just one more question before you leave, Ogg:
Did you install Ubuntu (and I assume that's what you did)
all by itself, or in combination with another OS?

I still plan to be subscribed to this ng, but I don't envision lurking
here
that often anymore. I believe that I have exhausted all I can out of my
ME
pc over the last 7 years.

Regarding Ubuntu.. sofar I have only used it via Live CD boot on my
upgraded ME pc. I have, however, made a full install of it over my old
40gig hdd which had my original ME system. That's the hdd that ME
eventually scandisk'd almost at every boot, and that also had an
occasional clunking sound. But, with Ubuntu, that hdd is operating
absolutely fine! Maybe that has something to do with the way Windows
causes fragmentation? Looking forward to saying goodbye to Windows
scandisk and constant defragmentation maintenance.

Hi Mart,

I've only tried running Ubuntu from the CD (not yet committed
[installed] it to HDD) on four different machines and it is certainly
'different'. The jury is still out here, but was pleasantly surprised
(and impressed) to see that it recognised quite a bit of my hardware
- and especially USB stuff (inc. router) and my (laptop) PCMCIA WiFi
card which gave (almost - just needed to input my WEP code) instant
access to the net.

I've always found relatively recent Linux distros recognise the hardware in
every case. But setting up the modem is usually something else! I was trying
each version of Mandrake (now Mandriva) as released, but now it has so much
cutesy-prissy stuff - obviously trying to emulate the appeal of Windows -
that I can't stand the bloody thing anymore - plus you require three or four
cds to install it, of course. Right now I've got Ubuntu, Santa Fe, Fedora 7
and one from a cover cd called Pioneer (or maybe its Pie in Ear?) that turns
out to be a version of Ubuntu called Kubuntu! And has the same poxy animated
busy cursor as Mandriva that makes me want to kick things in the goolies!
All live cds, btw.

One thing about Linux that without, it wouldn't really be Linux anymore, is
corporate-style security. It makes sense, unfortunately, that users should
be prevented from doing most of what you and I want to do as a matter of
course and in Linux you have to log off and log back on as 'root' to do most
of what you don't give a second thought to in Win9x. WinXP, of course, has
the potential to be set up almost as securely, such as your voluntarily
doing your surfing in a Limited account rather than as an Administrator, but
even I don't want to behave that way! Just like much of so-called social
etiquette, it's really just how a small section of neurotics want things to
be, like the ex-Colonel who thinks civillian life should be as disciplined
as military life. Most of us didn't voluntarily join the forces, did we! It
isn't lax and irresponsible to not want to have to worry about security like
you're a company sysadmin!

Linux is, really, a corporate OS. Note that Alias, the main Ubuntu advocate
here, used to (choose to) use (possibly still does) Win 2k.

Last night I thought - as I do! - of a way to describe Linux advocates:
they're like model aircraft enthusiasts who don't understand that they're a
minority group. They think everyone would go out flying model aircraft if
the right model could be found! Like they think the reason the rest of us
don't do it is because we don't want model Beechcraft or Spitfires, we want
a 737 so's we can relive last year's holiday on the Costa Del Sol! Try to
tell this modeller that most people just have no interest in flying model
aircraft and he'll just dismiss you as an ignoramus and get back to work on
the Boeing that's going to get the whole world twiddling their knobs in a
field of a weekend!

There, is that an insane take on the situation?

And just for the record, I feel I have to play Devil's Advocate as regards
Linux. Not least because there have always been crazies posting to whichever
computer-related newsgroup over the years. Linux trolls. More trolls than
genuine stable enthusiasts. But as the climate shifts - largely thanks to M$
and the anti-piracy/DRM B$ - more people are looking Linux-wards and almost
no-one anymore is critical of them. But imagine Alias is not saying we
should use Ubuntu, but that we should use Windows 2000. That puts it in a
clearer perspective. Though LBreakout2 - an excellent arcade game written
for Linux then ported to Windows - shows it does have potential.

Shane

"Shane" wrote in message
I've always found relatively recent Linux distros recognise the
hardware in every case. But setting up the modem is usually
something else!..
...
...same version of Ubuntu called Kubuntu! And
has the same poxy animated busy cursor as Mandriva that makes
me want to kick things in the goolies! All live cds, btw.

Sofar my experience with the *buntu's has been that they recognize all the
hardware on my old ME pc just fine. I don't like the dancing "wait" cursor
in Kubuntu either, but I believe that can be changed as desired.


One thing about Linux that without, it wouldn't really be Linux anymore,
is corporate-style security. It makes sense, unfortunately, that users
should be prevented from doing most of what you and I want to do..
...but even I don't want to behave that way!

Then you're far better off with WinXX if you don't like the security and
have the pleasure of (or have someone else without your knowledge) changing
something haphazardly which would require a complete reinstall.


Last night I thought - as I do! - of a way to describe Linux advocates:
they're like model aircraft enthusiasts who don't understand that they're
a minority group...
....the rest of us want a 737 so's we can relive last year's holiday on
the
Costa Del Sol! Try to tell this modeller that most people just have no
interest in flying model aircraft and he'll just dismiss you as an
ignoramus
and get back to work on the Boeing that's going to get the whole world
twiddling their knobs in a field of a weekend!

There, is that an insane take on the situation?

Frankly, yes! g I think your analogy is reversed. Linux = 737, WinXX =
paper aiplane. With 737's there are lot more controls and "sysadmin" stuff
that you don't like. WinXX is the paper airplane that goes this way and
that, the way it wants, and we learn to accept it.


...more people are looking
Linux-wards and almost no-one anymore is critical of them. But
imagine Alias is not saying we should use Ubuntu, but that we
should use Windows 2000. That puts it in a clearer perspective.
Though LBreakout2 - an excellent arcade game written for Linux
then ported to Windows - shows it does have potential.

I'd would have considered trying W2K if I had that handy. I've heard better
things about it over ME. I would have preferred to maintain using many of
my old winapps. But you mention games! That is probably what separates you
and me in this whole discussion. I don't use my pc for games - none. I use
it for actual work. Well.. I sort of have softspot for Myst, but I started
playing it in OS/2; the last incarnations of require XP, but I do have a
couple of other PCs that came with XP pre-installed - Myst can live there.

Bottom line.. I want my "main" pc to be reliable. ME had a 7-year test.
Worked reasonably well for the first 5 years (still the usual re-boot
required every now and then). But lately, Me doesn't cooperate with my
latest hardware upgrades. Re-boots are required more often. Very annoying.
If I were playing a game - so what. But if I'm in the middle of writing a
report or an invoice or building a catalog, then a failure is not
acceptible.

You say you don't like sysadmin stuff.. well, attending to Windows defrag,
scandisk, anti-virus, spamware, etc.. sound quite sysadmin-ish to me!
But I won't miss those when I ultimately move to Linux.

Very interesting reply Shane, I've snipped it for brevity (others can look
at previous post if they need to) but you asked "... is that an insane take
on the situation?"

Not at all - or at least not as far as I am concerned g

However, as I've spent the past almost 20 years or so attempting to get to
grips with MS's OS's - (well, DOS thru' XP) not to mention the earlier ZX
and BBC stuff, I think I'm getting just a little bit 'long-in-the-tooth' to
have to start over with yet a new (to me) OS.

I'm beginning to side with the Honda - and now Ubuntu - slogan " It just
works!" and so long as it does (and XP 'seems' to) then I'm happy. I, for
one have had a very interesting and educational experience with MS
(especially WinMe) over those years and do not particularly relish now
jumping into Linux (family) at this 'late stage' of its development. Hence
my earlier comment regarding getting myself a life.

My (very limited) experience with Vista and Ubuntu reminds me - do I really
NEED them? But being logical, if/when my current WinMe/XP kit(s) wear out,
only then will I need to make a decision as to which direction to go. The
days of needing to try (install) every piece of software I could get my
hands on (ring any bells Harry?) are well over. Other than a handful of
popular 'favourites' including Office suite are all that I need. So I guess
it could be the Linux route. Beginning to get a little disillusioned with
the overpriced bloatware from MS (as perhaps others are too, if the take-up
of retail Vista seem to indicate) - but wouldn't have missed the experience
for the world. You never know, my winter evenings might be free after all
g

BTW - Whatever happened to Lotus? - That was good stuff 'til MS knocked them
off their perch.

Mart

Ogg wrote:
"Shane" wrote in message
I've always found relatively recent Linux distros recognise the
hardware in every case. But setting up the modem is usually
something else!..
..
...same version of Ubuntu called Kubuntu! And
has the same poxy animated busy cursor as Mandriva that makes
me want to kick things in the goolies! All live cds, btw.

Sofar my experience with the *buntu's has been that they recognize
all the hardware on my old ME pc just fine. I don't like the dancing
"wait" cursor in Kubuntu either, but I believe that can be changed as
desired.

One thing about Linux that without, it wouldn't really be Linux
anymore, is corporate-style security. It makes sense, unfortunately,
that users should be prevented from doing most of what you and I
want to do.. ...but even I don't want to behave that way!

Then you're far better off with WinXX if you don't like the security
and have the pleasure of (or have someone else without your
knowledge) changing something haphazardly which would require a
complete reinstall.

Last night I thought - as I do! - of a way to describe Linux
advocates: they're like model aircraft enthusiasts who don't
understand that they're a minority group...
....the rest of us want a 737 so's we can relive last year's holiday
on the
Costa Del Sol! Try to tell this modeller that most people just have
no interest in flying model aircraft and he'll just dismiss you as an
ignoramus
and get back to work on the Boeing that's going to get the whole
world twiddling their knobs in a field of a weekend!

There, is that an insane take on the situation?

Frankly, yes! g I think your analogy is reversed. Linux = 737,
WinXX = paper aiplane. With 737's there are lot more controls and
"sysadmin" stuff that you don't like. WinXX is the paper airplane
that goes this way and that, the way it wants, and we learn to accept
it.

...more people are looking
Linux-wards and almost no-one anymore is critical of them. But
imagine Alias is not saying we should use Ubuntu, but that we
should use Windows 2000. That puts it in a clearer perspective.
Though LBreakout2 - an excellent arcade game written for Linux
then ported to Windows - shows it does have potential.

I'd would have considered trying W2K if I had that handy. I've heard
better things about it over ME. I would have preferred to maintain
using many of my old winapps. But you mention games! That is
probably what separates you and me in this whole discussion. I don't
use my pc for games - none. I use it for actual work. Well.. I
sort of have softspot for Myst, but I started playing it in OS/2; the
last incarnations of require XP, but I do have a couple of other PCs
that came with XP pre-installed - Myst can live there.
Bottom line.. I want my "main" pc to be reliable. ME had a 7-year
test. Worked reasonably well for the first 5 years (still the usual
re-boot required every now and then). But lately, Me doesn't
cooperate with my latest hardware upgrades. Re-boots are required
more often. Very annoying. If I were playing a game - so what. But
if I'm in the middle of writing a report or an invoice or building a
catalog, then a failure is not acceptible.

You say you don't like sysadmin stuff.. well, attending to Windows
defrag, scandisk, anti-virus, spamware, etc.. sound quite
sysadmin-ish to me! But I won't miss those when I ultimately move
to Linux.


Ogg, essentially you misunderstand everything I said - and clearly don't
know me. I don't use PCs for games and I do little *but* Sysadmin stuff. The
point I try to make, over and over - have done for years now - is that to be
a viable alternative to Windows it does have to be like Windows. All
Linux-as-serious-competition-with-Windows advocates absolutely have to stop
thinking that because it satisfys them, it fulfils the requirements! And
okay, so you'd be happy with Win2k - in some respects so would I - but it
isn't for Windows Millennium users and if you would rather have Win2k than
WinME, then you made a mistake getting Millennium. I mean, certainly - and
I'm sure you'll agree - anyone who bought it for business was either
mistaken or misled. The only ones with Millennium should be the ones who
want the multimedia stuff. So trying to convince ME users that Win2k is
better can only be to assume that they all made a mistake getting it in the
first place. Which apart from being obviously wildly wrong, isn't very
generous either.

The vast majority would *not* be happy or better off with Win2k, so the
opinion of people who would, as to whether *buntu is a serious alternative
to Windows, is not worth much. After all, in business it is already known
that *nix is the better choice. The ones who have to want it and the ones
you have to convince *with the truth* are *not* the ones who would rather
have Win2k than WinME!

I don't like being called a 'guru' (I know you're not calling me one! So
that's alright then) - but, you know, for the first time in years I'm not
running multiple OSes (though I'm in the process of doing a third XP
install - seeing how easily I can add the Via RAID drivers to an XP disc -
since this machine doesn't have a floppy - and have them seen by Setup.
There! You talk about WinME balking increasingly at modern hardware - buy an
XP SP2 cd today and you'll find it *still* requires you to add special
drivers by floppy, and it won't accept anything else *despite* the fact for
years - since before SP2 - machines without floppies have been produced! You
see, another thing I have to keep stressing, as people read what I say and
assume I'm pro-Windows, anti-Linux - oh, how I *long* for the day I'd rather
run the latter!

Where was I?

Oh yes. I gave up on NT4.0 - at long last - and 98SE. Both of which I was
installing to virtual drives. I did have a WinME partition/XP partition
virtual hard drive and two more XP ones but - the reason I'm trying to get
round the lack of floppy - I'm setting up a dedicated host drive - on the
RAID0 system - and have fitted a 40G PATA disk (as an emergency
partial-backup location and...) as a physically seperate drive to run the
virtual machines from (I just burnt an XP disc booting with floppy emulation
and a floppy image including the RAID drivers, to see if, when running Setup
via WINNT, I can install the drivers from the virtual and read-only A:
drive).

So, I've got a 4G FAT32 XP drive solely for maintenance (which dual boots
with MS-DOS 8.00, ie from WinME) and will shortly have an NTFS 3G XP drive
just for installing Virtual PC to (and downloaded Virtual Server yesterday)
and the main NTFS XP installation, plus Documents, Softlib and Backup
partitions running on the mirror array. On the drive I'll be running the
virtual disks from I will continue to run WinME, along with at least one
alternative configuration XP disk and space for one or two test virtual
disks and quite possibly I'll install a distro there too (as opposed to only
run from cd).

You talk about Scandisk and Defrag as being something of a pita. Well - not
that I've ever mentioned it before - but you'll see my name in the history
file of ScanDefrag (basically a footnote - except not at the foot - from an
exchange with my old mate Koldbear that actually I'm quite proud of - that
is, that he thought to mention me). The point being that, just as I was
involved in testing it from the very beginning, I have always recommended it
and there isn't much reason to resent the effort of running those tools when
ScanDefrag exists and, once configured, you can run them all from a single
click (or as a Scheduled Task). Not that it makes a lot of difference to
you - but when you use those chores as examples of why one is justified in
ditching WinME...

Also relevent - that I do recognise the chores and that what I do is try to
'fix' them: http://website.lineone.net/~shanebeatson/

And yes, I use XP - like most of us here. I use genuinely next-to-impossible
to crack passwords. No-one else gets to operate this machine as an
Administrator. But I sure as hell do not care for having to log into a
different account just to run one command. To wait, type that password, run
that command, go back to the account I can surf the 'net from, then remember
I forgot a command, log off, wait, type a 20-odd character password again
(make a typo and have to do it again! Twice!) blah blah blah. Not
interested. Just because you and a handful of others think it's sensible! Do
you know what the odds are against someone like *me* being hacked while
online? No, nor do I - but I don't get malware. Like a number of genuinely
sensible users, I just don't get malware. But I do have an ever increasing
no. of anti rootkit tools, just in case. Why in god's name should *I* surf
from a Limited account that I can't install what I just downloaded, from?

Shane

Mart wrote:
Very interesting reply Shane, I've snipped it for brevity (others can
look at previous post if they need to) but you asked "... is that an
insane take on the situation?"

Not at all - or at least not as far as I am concerned g

However, as I've spent the past almost 20 years or so attempting to
get to grips with MS's OS's - (well, DOS thru' XP) not to mention the
earlier ZX and BBC stuff, I think I'm getting just a little bit
'long-in-the-tooth' to have to start over with yet a new (to me) OS.

I'm beginning to side with the Honda - and now Ubuntu - slogan " It
just works!" and so long as it does (and XP 'seems' to) then I'm
happy. I, for one have had a very interesting and educational
experience with MS (especially WinMe) over those years and do not
particularly relish now jumping into Linux (family) at this 'late
stage' of its development. Hence my earlier comment regarding getting
myself a life.
My (very limited) experience with Vista and Ubuntu reminds me - do I
really NEED them? But being logical, if/when my current WinMe/XP
kit(s) wear out, only then will I need to make a decision as to which
direction to go. The days of needing to try (install) every piece of
software I could get my hands on (ring any bells Harry?) are well
over. Other than a handful of popular 'favourites' including Office
suite are all that I need. So I guess it could be the Linux route.
Beginning to get a little disillusioned with the overpriced bloatware
from MS (as perhaps others are too, if the take-up of retail Vista
seem to indicate) - but wouldn't have missed the experience for the
world. You never know, my winter evenings might be free after all g

BTW - Whatever happened to Lotus? - That was good stuff 'til MS
knocked them off their perch.


Yeah, funny that, when I was looking at new computers recently - settling
for Lenovo , ie IBM - I saw that the models that came with the likes of an
Office suite bundled, not only was it Lotus Smartsuite - it was Smartsuite
Millennium! Which came bundled with the machine I got in 2000! Not that
there's anything wrong with that. Though maybe the lack of anything more
recent suggests development stopped?

I gave my copy to my sister but it was never used. I'd bet donuts to dollars
(I'd rather have the donuts!) she still has it. Maybe I should retrieve it.

Reading your above, I found myself thinking 'yeah, essentially I agree - but
for different reasons'. Then it turns out its essentially the same reason
after all!

So, Vista bombing? I do hope so! And I hope it has at least a little to do
with charging us extra just because they can! I'd be proud to call myself
British if we're giving M$ a communal V-sign (of course, they'd think it
meant 'Victory!' g).

I would like to try Vista. But then, that's what I do, isn't it. It would be
predictable that I'd want to try it, but I wouldn't give them my money if I
was on fire and it came with a free glass of water!


Shane